Originally Posted by SeattleUte (Post 187988)

Still, McConkie's statement totally deserves to be in the Top 10.

My biggest problem with the GAAB=Catholic Church viewpoint is it's ahistorical in the same way the Great Apostasy is. The Catholic Church is just the primary stuff of Western culture for most of the last 2000 years for better and worse. It's sad that a man as aged as Bruce R. McCaonkie was when he said what's quoted above was so ignorant as to not see that the Catholic Church was a but for cause for the good life that he lived. Yes, about myself, I can say that about Mormonism as well as the Catholic Church. McConkie's (and the rest of these gentlemen's) ignorance, their myopia, their historical chauvenism, is absolutely staggering.

And this is one of the primary evils of religion, and Mormonism may bee the biggest offender. All of these men were ill-bred, uneducated men. I challenge any one of you to go to the Vatican or visit the Gothic cathedrals in Northern Euope and do a serious study of the artwork including the stained glass and see if you can still be as dismissive as McConkie. If you could, I would feel sorry for you because it would mean you are clueless about what you are and where you came from.

Originally Posted by woot (Post 187995)

Clearly the Catholic church has been, and still is, wrong about almost everything, but at least their leadership is generally very educated. It's easy to see why there are so many absurd statements coming from the 15 when their training is either poor or useful only for running a bureaucracy rather than knowledge of the world. There are exceptions to this, Holland perhaps being one, but it's a pretty big problem.

Originally Posted by SeattleUte (Post 187997)

You too missed the point, almost as badly as McConkie, I'm afraid.

Originally Posted by woot (Post 188004)

I was making a point, and it's a good one unless you can explain why not. The last time we discussed the Catholic church you declared that art and music exist only because of the church and that I'm on the side of Hitler, Stalin, and kitten rapists. Forgive me if I ignore you on this topic.

Originally Posted by SeattleUte (Post 187992)

Sorry Jim/Taq. Nice threadjack try, Lebowski.

Originally Posted by Jim Swarthout (Post 187967)

Saw this list on another forum and thought I'd throw it out to CG to get some reaction. Obviously, the level of "offensiveness" is relative and many of these statements are antiquated:

1) "It is also to the Book of Mormon to which we turn for the plainest description of the Catholic Church as the great and abominable church. Nephi saw this ‘church which is the most abominable above all other churches' in vision. He ‘saw the devil that he was the foundation of it' and also the murders, wealth, harlotry, persecutions, and evil desires that historically have been a part of this satanic organization.(Bruce R. McConkie. Mormon Doctrine [1958], 130.)

2) "I think no more of taking another wife than I do of buying a cow." - Apostle Heber C. Kimball, The Twenty Seventh Wife, Irving Wallace, p. 101.

3) "Brethren, I want you to understand that it is not to be as it has been heretofore. The brother missionaries have been in the habit of picking out the prettiest women for themselves before they get here, and bringing on the ugly ones for us; hereafter you have to bring them all here before taking any of them, and let us all have a fair shake." - Apostle Heber C. Kimball, The Lion of the Lord, New York, 1969, pp

4) "You may inquire of the intelligent of the world whether they can tell why the aborigines of this country are dark, loathsome, ignorant, and sunken into the depths of degradation ...When the Lord has a people, he makes covenants with them and gives unto them promises: then, if they transgress his law, change his ordinances, and break his covenants he has made with them, he will put a mark upon them, as in the case of the Lamanites and other portions of the house of Israel; but by-and-by they will become a white and delightsome people" (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 7:336).

5) "The day of the Lamanites in nigh. For years they have been growing delightsome. . . The children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the reservation. . .There was the doctor in a Utah city who for two years had had an Indian boy in his home who stated that he was some shades lighter than the younger brother just coming into the program from the reservation. These young members of the Church are changing to whiteness and to delightsomeness. Spencer W. Kimball; The Improvemant, Era, Dec. 1960, p. 923)

6) "You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind....Cain slew his brother. Can might have been killed, and that would have put a termination to that line of human beings. This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin." (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, page 290).

7) "Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so." (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Volume 10, page 110.)

8) "Not only was Cain called upon to suffer, but because of his wickedness he became the father of an inferior race." (Tenth LDS President, Joseph Fielding Smith The Way to Perfection, p.101.)

9) "Let us consider the great mercy of God for a moment. a Chinese, born in China with a dark skin, and with all the handicaps of that race seems to have little opportunity. but think of the mercy of god to Chinese people who are willing to accept the gospel. In spite of whatever they might have done in the pre-existence to justify being born over there as Chinamen, if they now, in this life, accept the gospel and live it the rest of their lives they can have the Priesthood, go to the temple and receive endowments and sealings, and that means they can have exaltation. Isn't the mercy of God marvelous?

Think of the Negro, cursed as to the priesthood... This Negro, who in the pre-existence lived the type of life which justified the Lord in sending him to the earth in the lineage of Cain with a black skin, and possibly being born in darkest Africa--if that Negro is willing when he hears the gospel to accept it, he may have many of the blessings of the gospel. In spite of all he did in the pre-existent life, the Lord is willing, if the Negro accepts the gospel with real, sincerer faith, and is really converted, to give him the blessing of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost. If that Negro is faithful all his days, he can and will enter the celestial kingdom. He will go there as a servant, but he will get celestial glory. (Race Problems--As They Affect The Church, An address by Mark E. Petersen at the Convention of Teachers of Religion on the College level; Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah, August 27, 1954.)

10) "We do not intend to admit to our campus any homosexuals. If any of you have this tendency and have not completely abandoned it, may I suggest that you leave the university immediately after this assembly.... We do not want others on this campus to be contaminated by your presence." (Ernest Wilkinson, president of Brigham Young University, in a 1965 lecture to the BYU student body, titled: "Make Honor your Standard."

Originally Posted by smokymountainrain (Post 188024)

none of those comments are offensive. That is unless, of course, you are a fool.

The comments might be ridiculous, they might be unintentionally comedic, they might be ignorant, but they most certainly aren't offensive - that is unless one makes the conscious decision to take offense and I'm not sure why anybody would choose to do that.