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-   -   This talk won't go over well with some... (http://www.cougarguard.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12508)

Indy Coug 10-07-2007 06:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Requiem (Post 132452)
Careful TB, you wouldn't want to allow the entire world to observe your obvious immaturity and lack of intelligence on GC Sunday. My point is simply the church should be more inclusive and, as you so brilliantly exemplify, a bit less judgmental.

Perhaps you could revert to your uneducated anti-evolution mode. Give us some variety.
If you're going to repeatedly get bent out of shape about immaturity and judgementalism, you might want to avoid indulging so frequently in it yourself.

MikeWaters 10-07-2007 06:52 PM
The church tells women it is a sin to not be in the home fulltime, and your wife thinks she is wrong, in the church's eyes, to stay in the home?

Weird. Maybe she does need someone in my profession if that is the case.

tooblue 10-07-2007 06:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Requiem (Post 132452)
Careful TB, you wouldn't want to allow the entire world to observe your obvious immaturity and lack of intelligence on GC Sunday. My point is simply the church should be more inclusive and, as you so brilliantly exemplify, a bit less judgmental.

Perhaps you could revert to your uneducated anti-evolution mode. Give us some variety.
You are no different than any other poster here. When you cannot contend with a strong opinion you dengrate with insult. And by doing so you hope to dodge the real questions, to push the discussion into the realm of name calling ... you hope that your lack of thoughtful opinion will be forgotten about in the barrage of name calling.

SteelBlue 10-07-2007 06:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeWaters (Post 132448)
It's the women with jobs that are feeling guilty in the church, not the other way around.
I don't think the guilt is confined to one camp or the other. I've seen evidence that supports what each of you is saying.

tooblue 10-07-2007 06:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeWaters (Post 132458)
The church tells women it is a sin to not be in the home fulltime, and your wife thinks she is wrong, in the church's eyes, to stay in the home?

Weird. Maybe she does need someone in my profession if that is the case.
The church does not equate it with sin. If you can't empathize or offer more by way of helpful opinion then don't resort to hurtful comments guised as humor or feigned concern.

It's unbecoming ;)

tooblue 10-07-2007 07:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sassy in RS (Post 132451)
I used to wear two earrings so as to avoid ever having to converse with jerks such as yourself.
And now I am a jerk? I offer a counter point to the general attitude that prevails in this thread and I am now painted as a caricature of every misogynistic, condescending male you have ever encountered in the church.

Don’t take your frustrations out on me. It’s unfortunate you appear to assume so much. I have not saddled you with an insult. I just might meet you one day. I’ll reserve such judgments until such time.

MikeWaters 10-07-2007 07:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tooblue (Post 132463)
The church does not equate it with sin. If you can't empathize or offer more by way of helpful opinion then don't resort to hurtful comments guised as humor or feigned concern.

It's unbecoming ;)
I think therapy could help a lot of people. If you know someone that is conflicted and unhappy, what is wrong with therapy?

marsupial 10-07-2007 07:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeWaters (Post 132458)
The church tells women it is a sin to not be in the home fulltime, and your wife thinks she is wrong, in the church's eyes, to stay in the home?

Weird. Maybe she does need someone in my profession if that is the case.
We never need a logical reason to feel guilty.

Sassy in RS 10-07-2007 07:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tooblue (Post 132468)
And now I am a jerk? I offer a counter point to the general attitude that prevails in this thread and I am now painted as a caricature of every misogynistic, condescending male you have ever encountered in the church.

Don’t take your frustrations out on me. It’s unfortunate you appear to assume so much. I have not saddled you with an insult. I just might meet you one day. I’ll reserve such judgments until such time.
Misogynistic? Check.

Condescending? Check.

Feigning ignorance of the point I made? Check.

tooblue 10-07-2007 07:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeWaters (Post 132469)
I think therapy could help a lot of people. If you know someone that is conflicted and unhappy, what is wrong with therapy?

Personally I love therapy, don't have a problem with it. But that's not what is in question here. I have not played by the rules in this thread in helping to further solidify the notion that most or all woman are supressed, cajoled and in general forgotten about by the church at GC.

I offer a completely valid, interesting and different perspective, and I or my wife are so conflicted that we might require therapy?

It must be disturbing when the reflection in the mirror talks back and doesn't merely reiterate what was said.

tooblue 10-07-2007 07:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sassy in RS (Post 132476)
Misogynistic? Check.

Condescending? Check.

Feigning ignorance of the point I made? Check.
And you are none of those things? Check.

SteelBlue 10-07-2007 07:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sassy in RS (Post 132451)
I used to wear two earrings so as to avoid ever having to converse with jerks such as yourself.
That's weak and for the most part undeserved. I understand why some weren't happy with the talk. I don't understand why everyone has to be unhappy with the talk.

tooblue 10-07-2007 07:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by marsupial (Post 132471)
We never need a logical reason to feel guilty.
Agreed.

Zulu451 10-07-2007 07:21 PM
You guys are posting so fast I can't keep up with the comments.

I did notice that Mike kicked Farrah off the computer and took over!!!

tooblue 10-07-2007 07:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zulu451 (Post 132491)
You guys are posting so fast I can't keep up with the comments.

I did notice that Mike kicked Farrah off the computer and took over!!!
Misogynist pig! :)

FarrahWaters 10-07-2007 07:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteelBlue (Post 132462)
I don't think the guilt is confined to one camp or the other. I've seen evidence that supports what each of you is saying.
Agreed, I don't think women should be judged in either camp for or for not working.

Also, I don't think Tooblue is misogynistic, uneducated, or a jerk. He's just stating his opinion. No need to throw out insults.

SoonerCoug 10-07-2007 07:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FarrahWaters (Post 132497)
Agreed, I don't think women should be judged in either camp for or for not working.

Also, I don't think Tooblue is misogynistic, uneducated, or a jerk. He's just stating his opinion. No need to throw out insults.
I agree. Tooblue is generally civil compared to other anti-evolutioners.

He just needs to read the section on convergent evolution in a 9th grade biology textbook, and then he can change his avatar and signature.

tooblue 10-07-2007 07:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoonerCoug (Post 132499)
I agree. Tooblue is generally civil compared to other anti-evolutioners.

He just needs to read the section on convergent evolution in a 9th grade biology textbook, and then he can change his avatar and signature.
See, that's the funny thing. I am actually not anti-evolution ... I'm anti evolutionists who are evangelical as the most ardent of Baptist preachers. No one has bothered to ask what I really think, they prefer me to play the part of the caricature!

Zulu451 10-07-2007 07:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FarrahWaters (Post 132497)
Agreed, I don't think women should be judged in either camp for or for not working.

Also, I don't think Tooblue is misogynistic, uneducated, or a jerk. He's just stating his opinion. No need to throw out insults.
Farrah!! Where is Mike and what have you done to him?? He is probably tied up somewhere.... uh... we won't go that direction. LOL!

SoonerCoug 10-07-2007 07:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tooblue (Post 132503)
See, that's the funny thing. I am actually not anti-evolution ... I'm anti evolutionists who are evangelical as the most ardent of Baptist preachers. No one has bothered to ask what I really think, they prefer me to play the part of the caricature!
I'm just teasing you.

tooblue 10-07-2007 07:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoonerCoug (Post 132505)
I'm just teasing you.
Understood :)

Black Diamond Bay 10-07-2007 07:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Requiem (Post 132438)
At least you bring some hilarity to my day. Married mormon men tell single mormon woman to "stop chasing men, get married and all will be well in Zion"? Are your lives really this black and white? You just reinforce the fact that GC is all about the mainstream. Was Christ this exclusive?
IMO, if you listen with a little humility and set aside some resentment you'll find something to take from every talk, regardless of whether or not it was tailored for your particular situation in life.

SoCalCoug 10-07-2007 07:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tooblue (Post 132503)
See, that's the funny thing. I am actually not anti-evolution ... I'm anti evolutionists who are evangelical as the most ardent of Baptist preachers. No one has bothered to ask what I really think, they prefer me to play the part of the caricature!
Don't start going Tex on us.

non sequitur 10-07-2007 07:48 PM
One of my greatest amusements on CougarGuard is watching TooBlue routinely get his ass kicked trying to debate untenable positions. TB, get yourself a white flag and have one of those Frenchies up in Canada teach you how to use it.

jay santos 10-07-2007 07:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FarrahWaters (Post 132497)
Agreed, I don't think women should be judged in either camp for or for not working.
Neither should feel judged. But at the same time, it's OK on occasion for the church to clarify it's position on what is the ideal life for us to live.

If I have trouble supporting my family, I don't need to feel like killing myself everytime I go to priesthood meeting. But at the same time, it's good for them to remind all the young men how important it is to prepare to support a family. And I can take what they're saying for myself to see if there's something I can improve on.

tooblue 10-07-2007 07:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by non sequitur (Post 132519)
One of my greatest amusements on CougarGuard is watching TooBlue routinely get his ass kicked trying to debate untenable positions. TB, get yourself a white flag and have one of those Frenchies up in Canada teach you how to use it.
Butt kicked? Don't think so buddy. The simple fact I don't wave the white flag means my position is far from untenable. Hence your desire to predict victory is born of the uncertainty of your convictions ... it's akin to Iran claiming there are no Iranian homosexuals ;)

Black Diamond Bay 10-07-2007 07:58 PM
FYI, I like Sister Beck. She gives a talk in a normal tone of voice. No spiritual voice.

Frank Ryan 10-07-2007 07:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jay santos (Post 132419)

I try to be sympathetic to those that feel judged, but the quote attributed to Nelson Mandela comees to my mind in this case.

"Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be? You are a child of God. Your playing small does not serve the world. There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you. We are all meant to shine, as children do. We were born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us. It's not just in some of us; it's in everyone. And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others."
that's a great quote. mandela used it during his inaguration speech, but it comes originally from lady poet or author

Tex 10-07-2007 08:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Requiem (Post 132438)
At least you bring some hilarity to my day. Married mormon men tell single mormon woman to "stop chasing men, get married and all will be well in Zion"? Are your lives really this black and white? You just reinforce the fact that GC is all about the mainstream. Was Christ this exclusive?
Your problem, Req, is that you think this is what she said.

tooblue 10-07-2007 08:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalCoug (Post 132514)
Don't start going Tex on us.
If that's a compliment -thank you :cool:

SteelBlue 10-07-2007 08:07 PM
A quick google search led me here:

http://skdesigns.com/internet/articl..._deepest_fear/

mpfunk 10-07-2007 08:08 PM
My biggest problem with the talk was the anti-education for women thread in it and the not putting off kids part of it.

non sequitur 10-07-2007 08:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tooblue (Post 132523)
Butt kicked? Don't think so buddy. The simple fact I don't wave the white flag means my position is far from untenable. Hence your desire to predict victory is born of the uncertainty of your convictions ... it's akin to Iran claiming there are no Iranian homosexuals ;)
I know virtually nothing about UFC, but if it's on TV and I'm watching, I generally know which guy is getting his ass kicked. Same goes for rhetoric. I'm no expert on the subject, but I can usually tell when someone's eyes are swollen and nose is bloodied ;)

Tex 10-07-2007 08:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FarrahWaters (Post 132436)
What if all the men in the church were told that the noblest calling they could have would be as a construction worker? It's useful to society, you can stay physically fit, and you'd make very little pay, but it would be an honest living.

I object that the job of homemaker should be held up as the dream job for every woman. Do I look down upon women who like being homemakers (and are good at it). Of course not. But why should it be for everyone?

I am grateful to be a mother, and I know how important that job is. But one day, the kids will be in school and I don't think I will be happy as a homemaker.
What a horrible analogy. There is nothing inherently eternally exalting about being a construction worker, or undertaking any earthly vocation.

It is interesting that some folks have such open "homemaking" wounds that as soon as someone mentions the word, they start bleeding all over themselves and those around them.

Motherhood (and fatherhood) is the highest and most noble of all callings to which one can aspire. Not all will have that opportunity now (although we are told they will hereafter), and they should NOT be excluded or made to feel like less accomplished human beings or members of the church. But that doesn't mean we stop holding out the ideal as that goal to which we should aspire. Those who cannot discern the difference should stop looking to make a man an offender for a word.

tooblue 10-07-2007 08:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by non sequitur (Post 132531)
I know virtually nothing about UFC, but if it's on TV and I'm watching, I generally know which guy is getting his ass kicked. Same goes for rhetoric. I'm no expert on the subject, but I can usually tell when someone's eyes are swollen and nose is bloodied ;)
Check the channel. ;) Better yet keep telling yourself; 'tooblue doesn't exist, I'm right, tooblue doesn't exist, I'm right ... '

If my position is so untenable, dismantle it. I'll come back ofter the next session and check in. Or do you fear getting bloodied?

MikeWaters 10-07-2007 08:20 PM
My problem is this: why aren't men told more forcefully that fatherhood is their most noble calling?

Perhaps because it isn't?

If fatherhood was the most noble calling, what do we say of those who sacrifice it in performing time-consuming callings?

Maybe the reason why Pres. Monson didn't have more children? (who knows).

I would be interested to hear a talk about how men shouldn't trade material gain (working 80 hours a week in a big law firm) for time with their family.

I'll probably be waiting a long time.

Black Diamond Bay 10-07-2007 08:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeWaters (Post 132537)
My problem is this: why aren't men told more forcefully that fatherhood is their most noble calling?

Perhaps because it isn't?

If fatherhood was the most noble calling, what do we say of those who sacrifice it in performing time-consuming callings?

Maybe the reason why Pres. Monson didn't have more children? (who knows).

I would be interested to hear a talk about how men shouldn't trade material gain (working 80 hours a week in a big law firm) for time with their family.

I'll probably be waiting a long time.

I think for the most part men already know that. They don't need reassured.

I figure that they're never going to tell men to work less. I think the more prolific problem is men that don't work enough.

il Padrino Ute 10-07-2007 08:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Diamond Bay (Post 132539)
I figure that they're never going to tell men to work less. I think the more prolific problem is men that don't work enough.
This is an excellent point. Well stated, BDB.

non sequitur 10-07-2007 08:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tooblue (Post 132536)
Check the channel. ;) Better yet keep telling yourself; 'tooblue doesn't exist, I'm right, tooblue doesn't exist, I'm right ... '

If my position is so untenable, dismantle it. I'll come back ofter the next session and check in. Or do you fear getting bloodied?
It makes little sense for me to debate you because, like Tex and Indy, you will eventually come back to the position that things are the way they are because God ordained that they be that way, and we are in no position to question God. That's not debate; it's retreat. We have irreconcilable points of view and I'm not looking for converts to my way of thinking. I am entertained, though, when I watch true believers square off and attempt the difficult trick of using logic to support unsupportable arguments. That is high entertainment.

OrangeUte 10-07-2007 08:41 PM
not to change the topic, but who in the hell put hales and scott back to back. i just woke up from a quick nap and scott is still going.

i'm going to go grab a coke or iced tea and then give my dog a bath b/c he stinks.


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