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-   -   Gitmo detainees want to stay there (http://www.cougarguard.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26557)

Cali Coug 11-19-2009 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tex (Post 308310)
This is hogwash. The allegation that the Bush admin "literally" kept no files or paperwork on the detainees is so ridiculous as to be beyond belief.

The allegation isn't ridiculous beyond belief. The fact that no files were kept for many detainees is.

Tex 11-19-2009 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cali Coug (Post 308311)
The allegation isn't ridiculous beyond belief. The fact that no files were kept for many detainees is.

The "fact".

Tex 11-20-2009 02:10 AM

There are so many reasons this is mockery of our justice system.

Our civil justice system is based on the presumption of innocence. Anyone tried in our courts gets that benefit. Can you think of another instance where the US attorney general and the US president have "guaranteed" a guilty verdict for an indicted defendant?

Another reason: Holder was asked by Lindsey Graham (video below) about Mirandizing Osama bin Laden, were he caught. Holder said there would be no need to do so because the evidence against him was "overwhelming". When was the last time a judge accepted a failure to Mirandize because the prosecutor said evidence of guilt was overwhelming?

Another: what happens if KSM is found not guilty? What then? You think Obama and Co. are going to let him go? Not a chance in this world ... he'll continue to be detained/under arrest in some form or another, again mocking the system.

Neither Holder nor Obama have been able to explain exactly why some detainees are being tried here, and others aren't. Nor has any legal justification been given for why military tribunals are good enough for some, and not for others. I listed to Hugh Hewitt interview liberal law school dean Irwin Chemerinsky yesterday, and even he couldn't explain it.

Graham calls this a perversion of our justice system, and he is absolutely right. There is no rule of law here. It's a show trial.


Cali Coug 11-20-2009 02:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tex (Post 308314)
There are so many reasons this is mockery of our justice system.

Our civil justice system is based on the presumption of innocence. Anyone tried in our courts gets that benefit. Can you think of another instance where the US attorney general and the US president have "guaranteed" a guilty verdict for an indicted defendant?

Another reason: Holder was asked by Lindsey Graham (video below) about Mirandizing Osama bin Laden, were he caught. Holder said there would be no need to do so because the evidence against him was "overwhelming". When was the last time a judge accepted a failure to Mirandize because the prosecutor said evidence of guilt was overwhelming?

Another: what happens if KSM is found not guilty? What then? You think Obama and Co. are going to let him go? Not a chance in this world ... he'll continue to be detained/under arrest in some form or another, again mocking the system.

Neither Holder nor Obama have been able to explain exactly why some detainees are being tried here, and others aren't. Nor has any legal justification been given for why military tribunals are good enough for some, and not for others. I listed to Hugh Hewitt interview liberal law school dean Irwin Chemerinsky yesterday, and even he couldn't explain it.

Graham calls this a perversion of our justice system, and he is absolutely right. There is no rule of law here. It's a show trial.


It is amusing to watch Republicans like yourself mocking Holder for his response when his response was actually right and your critique is actually nonsensical. First of all, neither Holder nor Obama "guaranteed" a win. They are simply evaluating the odds of winning (we already went through this just a few posts ago- your short term memory isn't moving much into long term memory). Second, yes, it is perfectly plausible that a person who doesn't receive their Miranda warnings is still convicted (in fact, it happens all the time). Republicans all over the country are rushing to state what they view to be legal certainties instead of actually figuring out what the law provides first. Failure to Mirandize a suspect means only that certain evidence isn't admissible (such as statements made after arrest and evidence derived as a consequence of those statements). If there is plenty of evidence without any evidence which would be excluded due to failure to Mirandize, then no big deal. There is a legal consequence for failure to Mirandize someone, but it isn't that the person gets to go free, as Republicans like yourself seem to think.

And if they are found innocent by a court of law, then yes- they need to be set free. That is precisely what due process means (and the thought is hopefully enough to properly motivate the prosecutor to put in an A+ effort).

MikeWaters 11-20-2009 02:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cali Coug (Post 308309)
Somewhat. This is the process that has taken close to a year now. The Bush administration literally kept no files or paperwork related to many of the detainees, and Holder is having a very hard time understanding why many were detained at all and what the charges are or even could be. Undoubtedly, due to this fact, many will have to be released. Rather than deal with legal "stuff," Bush and his team decided it would be WAY easier to dispense with that nonsense and just hold people forever. Other detainees did have files and paperwork and the legal case is being evaluated. With some, particularly the high level detainees, there is lots of evidence. Those are the ones being prosecuted in New York. For others, they will be tried by military courts.

You could have just said "no, they haven't decided the legal status, but they are proceeding haphazardly."

Eric Holder is a douche. With no respect for the law.

Tex 11-20-2009 02:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeWaters (Post 308316)
You could have just said "no, they haven't decided the legal status, but they are proceeding haphazardly."

Eric Holder is a douche. With no respect for the law.

Obama is doing exactly what Republicans said he would do: treating war like domestic crime. It's stunning to see someone like Cali admit that if KSM is found not guilty in NY, that he deserves to be set free. What a joke.

Cali Coug 11-20-2009 02:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tex (Post 308317)
Obama is doing exactly what Republicans said he would do: treating war like domestic crime. It's stunning to see someone like Cali admit that if KSM is found not guilty in NY, that he deserves to be set free. What a joke.

Didn't you just say above that any process that doesn't involve the possibility of freedom isn't a real process and is itself a joke? What happened to Tex from 10 minutes ago? He disagrees with Tex of now.

Cali Coug 11-20-2009 02:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeWaters (Post 308316)
You could have just said "no, they haven't decided the legal status, but they are proceeding haphazardly."

Eric Holder is a douche. With no respect for the law.

Nothing about what I described is haphazard. Difficult, yes. Haphazard, no. The fact that he is paying so much attention to actually building cases against the detainees is because he actually does respect the law, contrary to your assertion.

MikeWaters 11-20-2009 03:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cali Coug (Post 308319)
Nothing about what I described is haphazard. Difficult, yes. Haphazard, no. The fact that he is paying so much attention to actually building cases against the detainees is because he actually does respect the law, contrary to your assertion.

He is punting. Show trials with no guiding principles.

Tex 11-20-2009 03:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cali Coug (Post 308318)
Didn't you just say above that any process that doesn't involve the possibility of freedom isn't a real process and is itself a joke? What happened to Tex from 10 minutes ago? He disagrees with Tex of now.

No, that's not what I said. Nice try, though.


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