UFC vs Pride
 

I haven't been a consistent follower of the Mixed Martial Arts. I remember watching UFC in the beginning when it was in the tournament format. No weight classes or anything.

Is UFC or Pride better? I watched the last few Liddell fights and he looks like a real brawler. It seems to me there should be someone out there with better skills though. How do you think he would stack against Wanderlei Silva?

I know Fusnik loves Pride. I prefer UFC. I'd really like to see a melding of the two. I don't like the use of the boxing ring in Pride and how they restart fighters back in the middle when they get into the ropes kind of like wrestling does when you get off the mat.

Fighters are going between the two. Silva is fighting in the UFC as is Crocop. Pride is more of an anything goes though and they allow certain attacks and strikes like knees on the ground that aren't allowed in UFC. The refs tend to let things go a bit further in Pride too as some early stops in the UFC have caused controversy on occassion.

There are some sick fighters in both though.

As of right now I don't think there's anyone in either organization that can stand toe to toe with Liddell.

How do you think a professional boxer would do against Liddell? I think boxers would be way too one dimensional to compete. With Liddell, I'm not too sure because he likes to fight standing up. He might get caught with a good punch.

Seeing as there's no professional boxers in either MMA organization I really don't know.

Having said that you pose a very interesting question. I really don't know.

I've seen very little UFC or Pride, but I do watch a lot of boxing.

Because they are two very different fighting styles, my guess would be that if they fought by UFC or Pride rules, a pro boxer would lose. If they fought by the boxing rules, the boxer would win.

Liddell is Hawaiian kenpo, with tremendous flexibility. He has kickboxing skills that woudl destroy a traditional fighter, with power from any angle.

Ray Lenoard learned power strikes from angles from his study of kenpo.

Generally, most of the high level pro boxers are more fit, but they also use much bigger gloves. Punching power would be superior for most boxers, but they wouldn't know what to do with leg attacks and chokes.

Agreed, which is why it would depend on what rules were in place for the fight.

I hadn't thought about the gloves. Smaller gloves would, IMO be a benefit to the boxers because of their punching power.

Did you ever give a report of the fight you went to last weekend? If so, I must have missed it.

Mike Tyson in his prime would have a hard time with Chuck Lidell. I know this sounds asinine but the reasoning is this. Chuck stands up in UFC and strikes that way because he is the best in UFC at doing this. However if he were to fight a boxer, he obviously would not be able to stand and strike as effectively. However Chuck is polished enough where he can also take you to the ground and submit you. He is not as good on the ground as a lot of the other UFC guys, but he is better than a boxer. UFC rules Chuck wins all day long.

Also Boxers wear 16 oz gloves and UFC they wear almost like training gloves with little or no padding.

I was waiting until all the booze and boobs had worn off.

I haven't seen UFC or Pride, but my ex-pro boxing friend told me it is no coincidence that Liddell is the most boxer-like.

This same guy used to kickbox. And he said the boxers would destroy the martial arts guys. Kicking gets you off balance.

He said at the beginning of the round he would kick the required minimum (5?), and then just box the rest of the time.

Gatti in his prime against Lidell? I've never seen Liddell fight, but I think it would be foolish to say that a boxer couldn't win, even a mediocre one like Gatti.

Just watched this:


I'd say someone like Mayweather would destroy either of these guys. I would bet my house on that.

If one had the same level of athlete as those in boxing, then the martial arts would win.

Boxers know power transfer, but within the rules. If you're allowed to kick, scratch, choke and submit, all of those matter.

In reality, I believe this to be true. Whoever is most skilled in his art or arts would win.

Gatti would last about 30 seconds, if that, against Liddell.

I've watched snippets from a couple of UFC/Pride fights now, and I've seen maybe one kick. Kicking is worthless.

You see rather average punching from Liddell also (by boxing standards). He's muscle bound, which may serve him in wrestling (??), but wouldn't serve him in boxing. Didn't see any impressive combinations.

Gatti is not a very good boxer. Just an entertaining boxer. Someone like Liddell could not box with Mayweather. Mayweather would come in with combinations and destroy him, and avoid every single punch by Liddell.

Additionally, boxers can take more punishment that most mixed martials arts guys. They've been training all their lives to take punishment.

On a side note, my friend tells me that boxing causes more brain damage than fighting without gloves. The gloves cause an energy transfer that creates more brain movement. Whereas a hand without a glove causes more local damage, but less brain movement (brain mvmt is bad, because the brain hits the inner skull).

Here's a question: how do poor boxers do when they go into the UFC/Pride? Butterbean for example.

I couldn't disagree more. In its early days the UFC invited people from many of the different fighting styles. The Brazilian jujitsu guys cleaned up on everybody and UFC became a forum where you absolutely had to have ground skills. Any pro boxer who can't wrestle and doesn't know submission holds would be beaten and beaten easily as soon as he was taken to the ground. There''s no way for them to keep from being taken to the ground unless they land one quick knockout punch as the opponent comes in for the takedown.

If you're saying you'd bet your house that Mayweather would beat a UFC guy in boxing only, then sure I'd agree. If you're saying that Mayweather could walk into the octagon using his boxing skills and beat a UFC guy with UFC rules, then I'll be taking your house.

I don't believe this holds true with boxing. There is no way in boxing (besides a very early knockout punch) to keep from being taken to the ground where your art becomes nearly worthless immediately.

Butterbean went against a lousy wrestler and won in Pride, but the level of competition was nothing. Up until he dove into an upper cut, Butterbean was being pummeled.

about going to the ground. my friend tells me it isn't realistic in street fighting.

because in street fighting if you go to the ground, you bite. only unskilled fighters end up fighting on the ground.

of course this doesn't apply in UFC, where biting is not allowed.

I was watching one of these UFC fights on youtube that was almost solely on the ground. Talk about boring. Seemed more like the equivalent of two gay dudes in slow motion.

In street fighting, often somebody tries to tackle the other person and then submissions are important. it depends upon spacing.

Boxing is a great skill, and skilled boxers can accomplish much, but they also can be taken as well. The more skill one possesses the less he will kick, but kicking knees and groins can be effective.

Fights, of any kind of decent calibre, are rarely decided on the ground. This is according to my friend who spent most of his life in the merchant marines, frequenting bars and whore houses. I think he knows what he is talking about. He's taken a bullet in the abdomen, a shotgun blast to the achilles, and a baseball bat to the head. That speaks to his credibility.

Growing up, I saw a lot of kids' fights end up in headlocks and the like. Sort of like the things you see in the octagon. Guys working as a bouncer one week, suddenly UFC fighter the next week. You'd never see this in boxing.

Actually your friend is off....by oh say about 95% of fights that actually occur end up on the ground. Most fights end and end quickly, and most inevitably end up on the ground.

You can choose to refer to Liddell as an average puncher. One shot by Liddell to Gatti's noggin would end the fight and end it quickly.

Now Mayweather might be a different story, but if he also got caught with one of Liddell's shots the fight would be over,,,and again, over quickly.

If we're talking a straight boxing match,,,then the sweet science might win over, but if it's a MMA style match where punching, grappling and holds are brought into play people forget that Liddell's ground defense and holds are underated and he rarely has to use them because he's smart enough to not get into those situations. Randy Couture was one of the few who could frustrate Liddell into that position.

In a flat out street fight MMA style the boxers you could suggest would be lucky to last a minute against someone like Liddell.

This is not a knock on you guys, but my friend says that part of UFC's popularity is just plain and simple racism. White guys watching white guys. And then at the end they all smoke a a cigarette.

Just watched clips from the first Liddell vs. Couture fight. Most of it was on their feet, until the end when Couture grounds and pounds. But the fight was won before that occurred. Again the theme is "on their feet."

Mayweather vs. Liddell would not be a fair comparison. Mayweather fights at welterweight (up to 147). According to wikipedia, Liddell weighs in at 205. That would put him in the heavyweight division. Could Liddell take out the best heavyweights in history in a UFC match? I don't think so.

Imagine Bernard Hopkins against Liddell. I think anyone that would go into the UFC ring against Bernard Hopkins ought to fear for their life.

Here's what you're missing. Because of his kenpo training, you can't see his power, but it's his chi training plus angles that make him effective.

If you saw how he broke down Ortiz, who was a wrestler, then you'd know what I mean.

Ortiz started witha combination, then got sloppy opening him up for Liddell's combination in betweeh Tito's guard.

Your friend appears biased, as the master in Fearless stated, it's not about the art but the artisan.

A gifted boxer, trained and fit, can defeat most other opponents. However, you ignore the benefits of knowing you might get bit, kicked, kneed or head butted. If you ignore that, then I have this challenge. Go to a boxer and tell him he can't kick, but you can, that he must comply with boxing rules and you don't. You should be able to fare better than you would when you must comply with the rules. Additionally all arts eventually teach similar principles, of weighting, angles, power, deception and using balance against an opponent.

I disagree with your friend. I think most fights end up going to the ground. I do agree with you on one point though, I much prefer to watch boxing over UFC. Especially the heavyweight fights of the glory days in the 50's-70's. I can watch ESPN classic fights all day long. I can watch a couple of UFC fights and then I feel like I've seen everything. Boxing is just a prettier art.

Hopkins wouldn't make it through the first round with MMA rules.

what is MMA?

Mixed Martial Arts.

I should have added that I feel the same way in reverse. Take the UFC guy with the best boxing skills and put him in the ring with Hopkins and give them boxing's rules. Hopkins wins in the first round.

In a street fight (again MMA rules) most of the boxing heavyweights would get hurt badly. In a strict boxing match obviously the best heavyweights in history would certainly win.

very average heavyweight boxing contenders would beat Liddell in boxing.

boxing is not something you pick up in 2 months. Liddell would just be another muscle-bound heavy getting his a$$ kicked.

In his prime, Ali would have destroyed Liddell, no matter what ring they were in. He was lightning quick, had a huge punch with either hand and could get into anyone's head. He's not called the greatest for nothing. ;)

I believe before he went wacko, Tyson could have taken Liddell easily as well, no matter the fight. A street brawler who was trained just enough in boxing to destroy the competition.

Lennox Lewis. Evander Holyfield and guys like this would beat him as well.

It just bothers me that boxing has gone downhill like it has. Thanks a lot, Don King. Jerk.

Muhammed Ali, according to my boxing friend, is not considered the greatest pound-for-pound fighter of all time by most people. He's in the top 10 for sure.

That's more than likely a fair assessment, especially when Ali was his own biggest fan.

Who does your friend consider the best pound for pound fighter? Perhaps Sugar Ray Robinson?

But back to UFC/Pride vs. boxing, these are two different things. Apples to oranges, IMO. I just happen to prefer boxing.

With all due respect, this is a topic you clearly don't really know much about.

One thing Liddell is a light heavy weight, and if it is so easy for boxers to step in to UFC and win, then why dont more do it? the purses in UFC are becoming increasingly larger, the ORtiz Liddell fight had more pay per view buys than the last 3 heavy weight title fights combined. The way you make it sound a mediocre boxer could come in and dominate, why arent more journey men joining UFC then?

and to put this to rest. Jens Pulver has boxed professionally and is a UFC icon, he was just on ESPNs tuesday night fights not to long ago and here is what he said.

http://www.sherdog.com/news/articles.asp?n_id=1833

MMA vs Boxing
So, Jens, which sport is tougher -- MMA or boxing?

"MMA," he answered emphatically, "there's so much more to worry about. So many more weapons are being thrown at you that it's without a doubt the tougher sport as far as the elements that can end a fight. Whereas boxing it's just hands. If somebody's got better hands maybe they can get them through and knock you out. But in MMA, man, I can knock you out with my knees; I can knock you out with my kicks, my elbows. I can plum you up. You can't just get away with just punching. I can take you down, submit you. I can choke you. There's just too many more factors that can end a fight in MMA. It's like playing chess with a regular person then playing chess against a pro. That's what MMA is. There are so many more elements, you know. You have to train for everything and that's what makes it harder.

I recall an interview back when I was in high school with a guy from my hometown who was the reigning heavyweight kickboxing champion. This was back when Tyson was in his prime, feared by everyone in the business.

This guy, I'm sorry but I can't for the life of me remember his name, was asked what would happen if he and Tyson were placed in a ring. He basically said that if they were both allowed to use their specialties, he would knock Tyson out 9 times out of 10. A boxer would stand no chance against a skilled kickboxer able to use his feet.

I would tend to believe him and anyone who says a good MMA guy could take a good boxer.

Show me a MMA fight in which someone won with kicks. As far as I can tell the ratio of punches to kicks is something like 95:5.

Tyson was never a good boxer. Probably the most overrated boxer of all time. But may have also been the best-managed boxer of all time.

That kickboxer is FOS.

I'm betting that purses in boxing are still much higher than purses in UFC. People in boxing have invested their entire lives in the sport. Since they were kids. Switching to UFC is a big step, sending the message "I have failed in boxing." i.e. Butterbean. A true boxing contender, it seems, would have no incentive to leave boxing. A bad boxer might.

Does anyone have a link to purses in the UFC?