Do you feel guilty for never having fought in a war?
 

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There is a part of me that wonders how I would have performed in combat. That's something you can never know until you're in that situation. Most of me is very glad never to have had to find out.

As a good Mormon there are few things I don't feel guilty about, but never having fought in a war is not one of them. (Record for negatives in a sentence?)

I only regret not having the chance to skip to Canada to avoid a draft.

Dying in wars is for poor people.

Or so it has become.

I hope that was said just to get a response and I am obliging you.

As my family was in harm's way in 1991, I would have signed up for Desert Storm, but I figured by the time I signed up, went to training camp, etc. the war would already be over before I was in a position to get deployed.

I don't think I am wrong about this, despite what Statman and the Heritage Foundation say.

DirtyHippieUte has backed me up on this. As has other research.

To answer the original question, I feel a little bit guilty. But not enough to sign up.

I was in ROTC when I was a freshman during the first semester. Then I quit. The Captain that perished in the suicide bombing in the mess tent, he was a freshman in ROTC with me. So I am aware that some have given the ultimate sacrifice, whereas I have given nothing, along with 99% of Americans.

Well Mike, which wars in the past was it that the "rich" died in. Maybe the revolutionary type in Russia where the people took out the Czars, however I classify that as a Revolution, not a war.

WWI or WWII, you think it was the rich that went to war?

As far as dieing goes, I am sure the middle class and some of the rich would take issue with your statement.

Since most of America isn't rich, it is a pretty easy argument to point to the rich and argue they have it better than the rest of us. At what point do you think we should rise up like the Russians or Chinese did and institute some kind of government that spreads out the countries wealth amongst all the people.

Of course the rich have always been getting out of wars. Which essentially proves my point. Thanks for agreeing with me.

What about that recent study which showed that the highest quintile in household income actually had a proportionally higher representation in the armed forces?

The heritage foundation study that was released three days after a study that came to the opposite conclusion. The rebuttal to this study was that looking at zip codes can be very misleading. Because dorm rooms are full of young people with no income.

I think if you ask any person in the military, the idea that the enlisted ranks are teeming with middle class is ridiculous.

Define "Middle Class".

C'mon Mike, argue the rich don't serve in the same proportion as the other classes. Maybe you can make that argument. To say the military is made up mainly by the poor shows your lack of cognitive skills unless of course the poor are any incomes below say $150,000 a year.

I think there are a lot of definitions. In my mind, however, it is the sort of family with non-blue collar jobs (though I know that blue collars can sometimes make big $$$), where the kids are expected go to college, home owners, 2 cars, etc.

tell me about the kids among the children of your close personal friends and family that are enlisted in the military.

So you're really referring to upper middle class, right? At what percentile of household income does this subpopulation begin?

I don't have any close personal friends who are in the middle class.

I also live in a Mormon community and associate with active mormons. There kids go on missions instead of serving in the military, even the poor ones.

He doesn't know. It is a popular slogan and he can't back it up with figures or facts.

Do you mean Captain Bill Jacobsen?

Yes.

I know his parents well, great people.

I voted "Yes" in the poll because of people like them. I am rarely a proponent of military action, but the guilt that I do feel is because 0.1% of the population is paying a huge burden, another 0.2% or so is paying a smaller burden, and the remaining 99.7% of us have essentially no shared sacrifice.

Aside from the Jacobsens, I have another friend who is in his mid 40s with 7 kids. He joined the reserves many years ago. He has currently been overseas for about a year, and had an earlier 2 year tour, so he has been away from his family 36 out of the last 44 months. He's missed his oldest two son's weddings, his first two grandkids being born, two sons going on missions, and a whole lot more. Even when he comes back safely, he will have given up 20% of the time that his kids will live at home with him, trading it for living in a tent and working 80-90 hour weeks.

My guilt doesn't keep me up at night, but I don't know how anyone could not feel at least a little guilty in my situation.

I don't know that we need to feel guilty. I just think we need to feel gratitude and demonstrate unwavering support. Those who choose to serve country by risking life and limb deserve the honor they are due. They do an act of service that most of us won't, or can't.

OT: I have a younger brother who finished law school last year and has a good job with a firm in CA. Last month he called to tell me he spoke with the Army about joining the Special Forces and wanted to know what I thought. I didn't know what to say. He doesn't want JAG or anything like that – he wants combat training and experience. He hasn't pulled the trigger, but wasn't BS'ing me either. He gave me the rundown of what the recruiting guys told him, etc. What would you say?

I'd probably say, "is that bad between you and Mary? Have you thought about counseling?"

I had a coworker whose husband was a physician and had an obligation to the army. He kept trying to convince her that it was actually safer for him to be in special forces and go on their missions. She was pretty pissed off at him.

I agree with Tex but would usde more florid language. One additional way in which the ancient Greeks got it right is their virutual worship of their warriors. We should carry the ones who got shot at through the streets on bucklers and make them rich and famous. Adore them. Only then do we begin to compensate them.

didn't the photog who took the picture of the flag-draped coffins in the big cargo plane get punished or lose their credentials or something?

In reality the policy is to complain as much as possible if the dead are publicized or remembered, under the theory that if these dead become real human beings, then ordinary Americans will oppose the war.

No one sweeps the dead under the rug more than the current administration.

Multiple media sources provide daily scoreboard updates on US soldiers killed, so they can't be sweeping very much under the rug.

Did the media provide real-time tickers on casualty numbers in WWII?

Yes, they do. And you have seen all kinds of complaints from conservative sources (at least back in the days when it became clear that this insurgency was something here to stay, not the last vestiges like Cheney said).

Now not even the most liberal and the most conservative media care.

Needless to say the ones who paid the ultimate price, including becoming maimed for life, ought to be revered most of all. It sickens me to think that government wants to keep the people ignorant of the measure of their sacrifice for political reasons. This is why I love the battlefield memorials and memorials in DC and elsewhere that are so sublime but accessible to all.

Remembering the dead in general impersonal ways is fine. Remember the dead after the war is over, that is fine also.

It's remembering the dead in the specific, during the war, that gets a few people upset.

Now that's just plain disingenuous. I don't think any sane American has a problem with remembering the dead in specific ways; they just don't like it being done with a political agenda.

I don't know if they do it anymore, but Fox used to have a regular segment on Brit Hume's show once a week where they interviewed a current-war Iraq vet and showcased his heroism. I only saw a couple of them, so I couldn't tell you if they profiled those KIA, but if tastefully done, I think it can be a wonderful reminder of the ultimate sacrifice these servicemen make for us.

The no votes just don't get it, don't get war's vital relation to civilization. You're supposed to feel guilty or you're messed up.

and the less guilty one feels, generally the more ready one is willing to support a war.

Here is an article that addresses this truism. Just read the first few paragraphs describing Baruma's experience at a neocon party in Brussels on the eve of our invasion of Iraq.

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/20590

My Dad spent four years in Europe fighting WWII. He supports Bush and the War in Iraq. Can I use his vote as one who has served and votes the war is OK.

He also thinks the Clintons suck.

If you think I'm an anti-war pacifist you've missed my message. you are lucky to have a father like that.

I didn't see this thread just until now, but would like to add my 2 cents.

For awhile back from 1999-2002 I was reading everything I could get my hands in regards to WWII. The fact that 50-60 million people perished in that war is such a mind boggling stat that I have difficulty wrapping my brain around it. 400-500K of those American Casualties.

After reading a lot about it I became convinced that for the sake of plagiarizing Tom Brokaw that it was indeed "The Greatest Generation".

I'm part of Gen X. We didn't really have to do much or sacrifice much. The more I watched kids in this day and age the more I'm convinced they haven't a clue what real sacrifice means and just how much for granted they take their freedoms.

My Dad was drafted for the Korean War and suffered a severe back injury during Boot Camp and never went overseas. I'm grateful for the bad backs he's passed on to his 5 sons. All in his regime, save 7, were slaughtered on PorkChop Hill.

I also take my freedoms way too much for granted.

I have found myself many times regretting that I never served in the military or ever have to go to war helping to fulfill my duty. Part of that guilt admittedly drives me to cherish those even more who sacrificed on my behalf.

I guess that's also part of the reason why I take a great deal of pride in my brothers now 20 year career in the USAF. He's served 2 tours in the middle east during the war and is on the rotation to leave again sometime next Spring.

He's coming home next week, bringing his son to the MTC and all 8 siblings will be in town for what may likely be the final real family picture because of my parents continued downward health.

I've a nephew who also served 12 months in Afghanistan in the Army.

Sorry this is such a long winded explanation to make my point, but there's many things in life I've likely missed and being able to serve my country in that regard is one of them. Am I grateful I never went to war or had to fight? Yes I am,,,but at the same time.....well I'm sure you all get the point.

I almost signed back up after 9/11. I decided against it, I don't feel guilty. I miss the cameraderie of the service. I miss the NCO corps, so much easier to get things done than the civilian world. I don't miss the political correctness movement facilitating an atmosphere where I spent more time in consideration for others training than I spent actually maneuvering my Scout platoon. I guess I was a bit bitter that there was not the money to ensure that the units were adequately trained for their wartime missions, IMO the American people owe that to those who volunteer to put their lives on the line for ma and apple pie. I am sure there is plenty of money now.

Many of the soldiers were really good kids, often with less than desirable pasts, just trying to improve their lives. Similar to serving a mission it made me grateful for the blessings of my upbringing and solidified my conviction to the temporal blessings of a healthy, wholesome and spiritual life as advocated by LDS doctrine. It made me aware that others with issues have reasons and challenges/baggage that I luckily might never understand. It helped me to not be so egocentrical or judgemental. The NCOs were the best. Most of mine had been complete wasters/high school dropouts/druggies who found some discipline in the service and developed into some of the best pure leaders of men I ever had the pleasure of knowing. They were profane, vile and pretty damn offensive. However, in their own way they had a genuine love of their troopers, very much true charity in my opinion. They would work like mad to make sure their men were trained for whatever contingency would come and I believed most of them would have laid their life on the line for each other. I was proud to have served with them. My professional life has never been as fun or fulfilling since I gave up my platoon in November, 1998.

To those who wonder the reason I got out was this. I wasn't overly attracted to the power. I liked the adrenaline rushes of blowing shit up and maneuvering units. I loved the tactics and the team building. I loved the idealism of genuinely believing what I did mattered. I loved being around the soldiers, doing PT and screaming ridiculous cadences. I didn't get my jollies off being saluted, called "Sir" or everyone standing up when I came around. I think most career officers have to have some attraction to the power or else it is not worth it to put up with the bullshit that you spend 90% of your garrison (day to day on post operations; i.e. not out in the field playing GI Joe) time doing. IMO the Army only looked fun for an officer as a Platoon Leader and a commander. The rest of the jobs are not a great deal different than what one does in the civilian world. It did not look worth it to me to put 20 years in to actually enjoy yourself for 4 of them, two as a PL and two as a Commander. So I got out and moved amongst the rednecks.

Rocky FWIW they extended the age limit and have liberalized all sorts of qualifications, that it would be shocking if you couldn't enlist, should you so choose.

Of course, like the rest of us, you may not want to do it at this time. But it's not too late, I don't think.

There's a vague chance I might become a VA employee in the next few years, but that's a whole different ball of wax. No commitment there.