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-   -   We're screwed (http://www.cougarguard.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25934)

Archaea 04-29-2009 04:56 AM
We're screwed
 
http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/04/...tch/index.html

To be among the hated powerless minority sucks.

F.. politics.

MikeWaters 04-29-2009 05:07 AM
Remember when Bush fought hard for Specter when he was being challenged in the GOP primary.

This is on Bush.

The GOP is absolutely awful. They are bankrupt in every way possible.

Cali Coug 04-29-2009 05:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea (Post 304397)
http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/04/...tch/index.html

To be among the hated powerless minority sucks.

F.. politics.
THIS is your wakeup call? The Republican Party is a joke. I didn't need a moderate Republican Senator to tell me that.

il Padrino Ute 04-29-2009 06:01 AM
It's not like Spector was ever going to vote against anything Obama wants to shove down the throats of the citizens. I'll give him credit for at least admitting that he's really an asshole Democrat.

MikeWaters 04-29-2009 12:53 PM
We were screwed the day the oligarchs settled on GWB to take power.

il Padrino Ute 04-29-2009 01:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeWaters (Post 304405)
We were screwed the day the oligarchs settled on GWB to take power.

Agreed. Obama is just the continuation of GWB with socialism breaking down the back door.

Tex 04-29-2009 01:54 PM
This is pretty simple, really. Early polls showed Spector 20+ points behind Pat Toomey, the guy who almost beat him in the primary back in 2004. Spector looked at his cards and decided it would be easier to win as a Dem in the generals then as a Repub in the primaries.

This is just political opportunism. It's not as though anyone believe Spector had a political-moral foundation to begin with.

MikeWaters 04-29-2009 02:08 PM
Specter used to be a dem, then switched to the GOP.

He is about one thing: power.

BlueK 04-29-2009 02:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea (Post 304397)
http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/04/...tch/index.html

To be among the hated powerless minority sucks.

F.. politics.
The GOP is being really, really idiotic right now because the religious right is into purifying the fold. If you aren't one of us, well, there is the door. Hell, even people like Mitt Romney they're treating that way. What a loser strategy. Yeah, I know Specter isn't the most "conservative" guy around, but from PA you could be getting someone much worse. The Christian Right might challenge and beat him but they would only get trounced in the general election anyway. What would be the point of that? And while most Republicans were taking the "nothing to see here folks, move along" or the "Good riddance!" approach yesterday, some sensible pepole like Lindsay Graham were starting to ask the relevant questions like what is the party doing to itself. So many years of pandering to the Mike Huckabee/Pat Robertson faction is taking the party down.

Tex 04-29-2009 02:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueK (Post 304410)
The GOP is being really, really idiotic right now because the religious right is into purifying the fold. If you aren't one of us, well, there is the door. Hell, even people like Mitt Romney they're treating that way. What a loser strategy. Yeah, I know Specter isn't the most "conservative" guy around, but from PA you could be getting someone much worse. The Christian Right might challenge and beat him but they would only get trounced in the general election anyway. What would be the point of that? And while most Republicans were taking the "nothing to see here folks, move along" or the "Good riddance!" approach yesterday, some sensible pepole like Lindsay Graham were starting to ask the relevant questions like what is the party is doing to itself. So many years of pandering to the Mike Huckabee/Pat Robertson faction is taking the party down.
I guess you missed the part in 2004 where the entire party swooped in to save Spector from Pat Toomey, including President Bush himself, and very conservative former senator Rick Santorum. Or the part where they nominated a centrist as their candidate for president in 2008?

MikeWaters 04-29-2009 02:28 PM
The GOP party is one without a single new idea.

No solutions.

Archaea 04-29-2009 02:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeWaters (Post 304412)
The GOP party is one without a single new idea.

No solutions.
And the Dems have any new ideas? I agree the GOP needs to reinvent itself, but the fact that the public buys the tired old ideas of the Dems shows what a bunch of morons the electorate is. Dems today just repackaged older Democratic ideas.

Reps won't reinvent themselves but will simply repackage old ideas. Both parties are bankrupt but the Dems are just better at kissing the asses of the stupid electorate.

MikeWaters 04-29-2009 02:46 PM
actually Obama has a lot of ideas. It's just that most conservatives don't agree with them.

GOP is short of ideas, esp. new ones.

BlueK 04-29-2009 02:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tex (Post 304411)
I guess you missed the part in 2004 where the entire party swooped in to save Spector from Pat Toomey, including President Bush himself, and very conservative former senator Rick Santorum. Or the part where they nominated a centrist as their candidate for president in 2008?
What percentage of the Republican candidates were religious right types? You had McCain, Giuliani and Romney who weren't. Then you had Ron Paul. After that, every other guy was religious right (about a dozen of them), and Romney was trying to look like one as well. The only reason McCain got nominated is because the RR couldn't agree on anyone, and McCain was everyone's second choice. He was the nominee by default.

MikeWaters 04-29-2009 02:51 PM
"Mitt the Evangelical Mormon" was a disaster.

Archaea 04-29-2009 03:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeWaters (Post 304418)
actually Obama has a lot of ideas. It's just that most conservatives don't agree with them.

GOP is short of ideas, esp. new ones.
His ideas are not new and not ideas.

Spend. Spend. Spend. and when you're done spend some more.

After that tax the hell out of them.

Where's the idea Mike?

Spend to create a stimulus by using pork to get there.

Spend to create national health insurance.

I see no ideas just throwing money at everything.

MikeWaters 04-29-2009 03:28 PM
He has a lot of ideas:

1. dramatically increase research spending

2. reform healthcare

3. reform financial regulations

4. green technology investment

etc.

They are actually ideas that propose solutions for vexing problems.

Where are the GOP ideas? No research, ignore green initiatives, healthcare is fine, let the markets do their own thing.

Wonderful.

Archaea 04-29-2009 03:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeWaters (Post 304435)
He has a lot of ideas:

1. dramatically increase research spending

2. reform healthcare

3. reform financial regulations

4. green technology investment

etc.

They are actually ideas that propose solutions for vexing problems.

Where are the GOP ideas? No research, ignore green initiatives, healthcare is fine, let the markets do their own thing.

Wonderful.

Research equals spend.

Reform Health care equals spend.

Financial regulations reform? Duh. Talk about a no brainer.

Investment equals spend.

Spend on pet projects and do the obvious. You're giving him too much credit. No ideas just doing the obvious. Spend on pet projects and omg, the financial markets are in turmoil due to a lack of transparency. We might have to reform the regulations. Simply brilliant. You call these ideas?

MikeWaters 04-29-2009 03:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea (Post 304436)
Research equals spend.

Reform Health care equals spend.

Financial regulations reform? Duh. Talk about a no brainer.

Investment equals spend.

Spend on pet projects and do the obvious. You're giving him too much credit. No ideas just doing the obvious. Spend on pet projects and omg, the financial markets are in turmoil due to a lack of transparency. We might have to reform the regulations. Simply brilliant. You call these ideas?
Oh yeah, I forgot the GOP ideas--huge tax breaks for oil companies.

That's spending too.

If your message, in these times, is "government doesn't work and is worthless", that's a losing message.

Archaea 04-29-2009 03:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeWaters (Post 304439)
Oh yeah, I forgot the GOP ideas--huge tax breaks for oil companies.

That's spending too.

If your message, in these times, is "government doesn't work and is worthless", that's a losing message.
I understand that message won't sell, but it doesn't make it less true.

So we have to come up with ideas that eventually don't work better than the Dems. That's fucked.

MikeWaters 04-29-2009 03:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea (Post 304441)
I understand that message won't sell, but it doesn't make it less true.

So we have to come up with ideas that eventually don't work better than the Dems. That's fucked.
People hate govt. But they like roads. They like firefighters. They like having police. They like courts and jails. They like medical schools and public hospitals. They like public universities. They like universal education. They like having a military. They really don't see how this country could operate without laws and government.

The republicans have proven, definitively, that they cannot govern.

Tex 04-29-2009 03:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueK (Post 304419)
What percentage of the Republican candidates were religious right types? You had McCain, Giuliani and Romney who weren't. Then you had Ron Paul. After that, every other guy was religious right (about a dozen of them), and Romney was trying to look like one as well. The only reason McCain got nominated is because the RR couldn't agree on anyone, and McCain was everyone's second choice. He was the nominee by default.
And yet, he was nominated. He even made a dent back in 2000. If the Republican tent were as small as Arlen Specter would have you believe, none of those guys would've made it past square one.

Successful politicians and/or political movements are not built on watering down your message for the purposes of mass appeal. They are built on persuading people who might otherwise disagree with you that your position is the right/best one.

The Republican tent doesn't need to be bigger--it's plenty big and there's room to spare. It needs to re-establish what it stands for, and convince more people to come inside.

Cali Coug 04-29-2009 03:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tex (Post 304411)
I guess you missed the part in 2004 where the entire party swooped in to save Spector from Pat Toomey, including President Bush himself, and very conservative former senator Rick Santorum. Or the part where they nominated a centrist as their candidate for president in 2008?
Those are the very examples being given by the conservative rank and file right now for "purifying" their party. Thank you for proving his point. The party that helped Specter in 2004 won lots of elections. This version of the party finds only 21% of Americans claiming they are affiliated with them.

Cali Coug 04-29-2009 03:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeWaters (Post 304418)
actually Obama has a lot of ideas. It's just that most conservatives don't agree with them.

GOP is short of ideas, esp. new ones.
Precisely.

Cali Coug 04-29-2009 03:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea (Post 304431)
His ideas are not new and not ideas.

Spend. Spend. Spend. and when you're done spend some more.

After that tax the hell out of them.

Where's the idea Mike?

Spend to create a stimulus by using pork to get there.

Spend to create national health insurance.

I see no ideas just throwing money at everything.

Sorry- you only accept that he has ideas if those ideas don't cost any money to implement?

Tex 04-29-2009 03:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cali Coug (Post 304444)
Those are the very examples being given by the conservative rank and file right now for "purifying" their party. Thank you for proving his point. The party that helped Spector in 2004 won lots of elections. This version of the party finds only 21% of Americans claiming they are affiliated with them.
And the Republicans have taken a 3-point lead in the generic Congressional poll.

The party now is not so different from what it was in 2004, except it now has no public face (normal, when a party just lost the White House with no clear successor). Conservatives didn't kick Specter out of the party. He left it, a long time ago actually.

Archaea 04-29-2009 04:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeWaters (Post 304442)
People hate govt. But they like roads. They like firefighters. They like having police. They like courts and jails. They like medical schools and public hospitals. They like public universities. They like universal education. They like having a military. They really don't see how this country could operate without laws and government.

The republicans have proven, definitively, that they cannot govern.
People like it all. Give me everything for nothing. Or take it from somebody else.

The process is grossly unreasonable as it is. Nobody wants to pay for it. So why doesn't any of the electorate curtail what we expect from government?

BlueK 04-29-2009 04:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeWaters (Post 304442)
People hate govt. But they like roads. They like firefighters. They like having police. They like courts and jails. They like medical schools and public hospitals. They like public universities. They like universal education. They like having a military. They really don't see how this country could operate without laws and government.

The republicans have proven, definitively, that they cannot govern.
Even the hardest core libertarians aren't against roads, police, jails and national defense. The republicans have never been that anti-government. But their problem now is that at least on government size and economic issues they're not that much different than the socialist leaning dems. That's why they seem to have no message right now other than social issues and war, which are not resonating.

MikeWaters 04-29-2009 04:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueK (Post 304456)
Even the hardest core libertarians aren't against roads, police, jails and national defense. The republicans have never been that anti-government. But their problem now is that at least on government size and economic issues they're not that much different than the socialist leaning dems. That's why they seem to have no message right now other than social issues and war, which are not resonating.
But they are against the other things I mentioned?

Archaea 04-29-2009 04:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueK (Post 304456)
Even the hardest core libertarians aren't against roads, police, jails and national defense. The republicans have never been that anti-government. But their problem now is that at least on government size and economic issues they're not that much different than the socialist leaning dems. That's why they seem to have no message right now other than social issues and war, which are not resonating.
and that is part of Mike's hyperbole. Most people agree on minimal level of government services, but the politics of it all is that many politicians divert from primary activities to secondary activities in order to create a need for the primary activities and functions of government. It's a vicious cycle. Don't pay for the roads, pay for the pork first, and then say, "see Reps aren't paying for the roads."

Cali Coug 04-29-2009 04:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tex (Post 304450)
And the Republicans have taken a 3-point lead in the generic Congressional poll.

The party now is not so different from what it was in 2004, except it now has no public face (normal, when a party just lost the White House with no clear successor). Conservatives didn't kick Specter out of the party. He left it, a long time ago actually.
If you want to hang your hat on the generic congressional poll, feel free. Just keep repeating to yourself "everything is fine with the Republican Party, there is no cause for alarm."

You are right that the party isn't "so different" than the party in 2004. The only real difference is that the 2004 party pretended to care about moderates (for electoral purposes), whereas this party doesn't pretend to care at all. Frankly, I like this version much more. It ensures they won't take back any control anytime in the near future.

BlueK 04-29-2009 04:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeWaters (Post 304457)
But they are against the other things I mentioned?
Who knows. Depends on who you talk to. I thought we were talking about the Republicans. But none of the things on your list are the first things Libertarians would go after. But no worries, there are no libertarians in the GOP anymore. They've been pretty much cleansed in this purification movement.

Tex 04-29-2009 04:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cali Coug (Post 304459)
If you want to hang your hat on the generic congressional poll, feel free. Just keep repeating to yourself "everything is fine with the Republican Party, there is no cause for alarm."
I didn't say that either. I simply don't think your cataclysmic view represents reality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cali Coug (Post 304459)
You are right that the party isn't "so different" than the party in 2004. The only real difference is that the 2004 party pretended to care about moderates (for electoral purposes), whereas this party doesn't pretend to care at all. Frankly, I like this version much more. It ensures they won't take back any control anytime in the near future.
Except that it's leading 2008 presidential candidate for a time (Guiliani) and its eventual candidate were both moderates.

I'm not too worried about the change in power ... the pendulum always swings, and the Democrats are thankfully a self-correcting group. They dig their own grave about as fast as Republicans do.

Snowcat 04-30-2009 01:44 PM
Democrats road a tidal wave in to power by not being George Bush. Their public face is a gifted speaker. They are getting a pass from most media not named Fox (who is not trusted as being fair and balanced).

The message of the election was change, change, change. Now we are getting change. It may have been a good idea to really think about the changes that were going to happen.

It is certainly a change to leave the frying pan for the warmth of the fire.

il Padrino Ute 04-30-2009 02:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowcat (Post 304509)
Democrats road a tidal wave in to power by not being George Bush. Their public face is a gifted speaker.
Well, he's gifted as long as he has a teleprompter.

Cali Coug 04-30-2009 03:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tex (Post 304461)
I didn't say that either. I simply don't think your cataclysmic view represents reality.



Except that it's leading 2008 presidential candidate for a time (Guiliani) and its eventual candidate were both moderates.

I'm not too worried about the change in power ... the pendulum always swings, and the Democrats are thankfully a self-correcting group. They dig their own grave about as fast as Republicans do.
Once again, Glenn, McCain is precisely the reason the party is sick and tired of the moderates right now. There are many on the right who still believe that if a Huckabee/Romney were the nominee, they would have won, but the party "abandoned" its principles by going with a McCain (and by considering a Giuliani). They are fixing that "problem" by alienating everyone who has a hint of moderate in them. That's what happens when you put Rush in charge.

Tex 04-30-2009 03:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cali Coug (Post 304518)
Once again, Glenn, McCain is precisely the reason the party is sick and tired of the moderates right now. There are many on the right who still believe that if a Huckabee/Romney were the nominee, they would have won, but the party "abandoned" its principles by going with a McCain (and by considering a Giuliani). They are fixing that "problem" by alienating everyone who has a hint of moderate in them. That's what happens when you put Rush in charge.
What happens when Rush is "in charge" is 1994 and 2002. Here's hoping the party finally returns to Reagan conservatism.

Snowcat 04-30-2009 06:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by il Padrino Ute (Post 304517)
Well, he's gifted as long as he has a teleprompter.
To each is given a gift. Some have the gift of writing speeches, others have the gift of reading them.

Tex 07-06-2009 03:26 AM
http://www.powerlineblog.com/archive...-june-dots.gif

ChinoCoug 07-07-2009 01:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tex (Post 306225)
Dang, Team Bush screwed things up worse than anybody else had imagined! Unemployment's been worse than even the Obama team predicted!


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