An indictment of single LDS men
 

I was talking with a friend tonight who related some interesting information about the BYU dating scene. Since I'm old I thought I'd run some of her thoughts by the young guys here and see if they agree.

First, she's referring to the experiences of her younger sister who has just returned from BYU and was disillusioned with her experience there socially. I should preface this by saying this is an intelligent, beautiful woman who would fall into the "mainstream" category as far as activity in the church is concerned.

Apparently she felt that many men had little interest in dating. She said that many were lazy in the manner in which they asked her out when they bothered to do so. For instance, a text message versus a phone call or an in person invitation. She mentioned that in both of the wards she attended while there the bishop actually resorted to calling men into his office and asking them "do you have a date for this weekend?" If they didn't he'd pressure them to get out and ask someone by Friday.

I asked what these guys supposedly do instead of dating and was told that most of these guys would rather sit at home with their buddies and play video games. She said it was incredible how many guys she met who preferred gaming to dating. She also mentioned that the thought of a 25 year old man more interested in World of Warcraft than in his studies was quite a turn off.

If this is true then things have really changed since I was there. Beautiful girls always had options and I didn't know a normal, single guy who preferred video games to dating. I've thought that talks like Oaks' recent "get out there and date" talk were coming from left field, but perhaps there's something to them. How much truth do you recent grads think there is to her sentiments?

I'm at BYU right now I completely agree. For whatever reason, dating just doesn't happen like it ought to. The big problem is that the importance of marriage is a constant theme booming in the ears of every BYU student. As a result, even a casual first date has implications and pressures beyond and above what it ought to have. In times gone by, a date could be little more than a pleasant way to spend an evening. Not so anymore.

The fact that Elder Oaks, bishops, and others have to light the fire under the guys is not at all indicative of a fault in the leaders of the church. The sad fact of the matter is that the chore of taking the young men of the church to task has fallen upon them. We leave it to seventy year old men to tell us how to behave in social settings.

My niece just graduated and received her masters. Verrrry cute, very intelligent, and very put off by the guys at BYU.

You have reproduced her very experience verbatim as if she explained it.

I too was just speaking about this to a friend...and am amazed at how the young men at BYU would rather play video games than go out with a cutie.

I guess all the talks at General priesthood meeting are spot on...

My sister graduated from BYU and is living up in SLC right now. She is single, 30, athletic, a very talented photographer with her own photography buisness, pretty, a singer, plays the guitar, writes her own music, and a lot of fun. She has more boys that want to be climbing / ski / waterski / hiking / running / bobsledding buddies than are interested in serious dating.

She is pretty discouraged about the whole scene up there but with her buisness she really can't just up and move.

I think one of the problems up there is that there are so many girls looking for men that the guys can be lazy about their relationships and just have their harems of girls to date at their leisure.

Any of you guys up there interested??

Too much emphasis on chastity?

The normal reason for dating is the desire for physical intimacy.

If you kill that in a man, there is little reason to seek out the opposite sex.

It is indeed a tough subject. I hear all the time about these athletes at BYU getting married and yet I also hear no guys at BYU are getting married.

I will bet that young men getting married on BYU's campus far exceeds the national average for colleges.

The pressure that is being put on makes me wonder if when I jokingly call BYU's main mission as an institution is to get the youth married, maybe I am closer to the truth than I think.

On the other hand cute, talented, young ladies being discarded for video games? Well something is wrong there.

My guess: not as cute as they think they are.

My guess: their judgmental nature is a big turn-off.

My guess: they are picky, but won't admit it.

My guess: anytime a guy doesn't ask them out, it is an affront.

Too little information to determine what is going on. It is hard for me to believe dating isn't going on, as few freshman and sophomore gals, who aren't the cutest in my mind, have returned home engaged. So either we have some shotgun weddings coming up or dating's going on.

And you comment of desiring sex with its taboo at BYU will stop a lot of dating. What's a guy to do on a date if he's not humping?

In my mind there are girls worth putting the video game away, and then there are girls that are not worth putting it away.

Then there are women who think that all interests and activities of their dates should disappear when she appears. Narcissism gone amuck. I had a patient that complained bitterly about her boyfriend watching lots of sports.

It put me in an uncomfortable position, indeed.

2007: 59.7% of the males in the graduating class were married.

http://saas.byu.edu/depts/graduation/statistics.php

I read a BYU Studies article that put that same percentage at 63% in 2002. That's a small drop. Not sure it suggests that the median female will have a significantly different dating experience these days but it may suggest a slight narrowing in the distribution.

Did you suggest a breast augmentation to cure that problem?

they are supposed to come up with solutions on their own.

Any idea of what it is for the U of U and nationally.

I would be interested in what it is at Bob Jones University too if you have that.

Tell her you can understand why he might do that and have lots of well-endowed ladies posted on the walls when she enters the room.

Sounds like we are getting close to the time where polygamy will be necessary.

Terrible that we have 22 year old girls, graduated from college, and still unmarried.

This article says the national average is 11%: http://nn.byu.edu/story.cfm/56823

Steel, your story is right on the money.

Holy crap. Of course BYU men graduate at an older age and that has something to do with the big difference.

However, with that big a difference you have church leaders complaining young men aren't getting married soon enough??

Since the HC is all about controlling the students. Why not make it a part of the honor code that young men will date once a week.

To have the Bishop haul you in and beat you up about not dating is pretty incredible.

I'm sure non-Mormons would find this perfectly normal. and not "peculiar".

I've had quite a bit of experience in the young adult program, and I'd say this isn't just a trend at BYU, though it's there as much as anywhere.

Yes, I agree, I think her experience is representative.

What do we expect? We've empowered the women. Told them they are princesses. Told them they are valuable. Told them they are important. Told them they should be accomplished. They then go out to school and interact with a bunch of youg men told how bad, worthless, unfocused, lazy, violent and evil they are. Then we expect these downtrodden young men to approach these self-centered young women with confidence and ask them out. These guys work up the courage to send a text message (because they aren't worthy to ask in person) and the girl turns them down because she is irritated that they didn't ask in person. If she does go out with him, she finds out how meager his accomplishments are compared to hers. If he is an RM he is two years behind her in school and, although he has done what he is supposed to do, he hasn't done anything spectacular. The date goes badly as the little princess lectures our beleagured anti-hero on how great she is and how much she can do and what her expectations are (based on her Dad who she still has hero worship for). The young man not only refuses to ask her out again but swears off dating for another month, retreats into a fantasy world where he can accomplish things in a short amount of time, and finds porn a more attractive alternative because the girls on the internet aren't insisting that he be some combination of Gordon Hinckley, Paul Bunyan, Bill Gates, and Brad Pitt. Then, instead of realizing that these hands-which-hang-down need to be lifted up we send the Bishops to lecture them on their "responsibility" to ask girls out that they are neglecting and have Apostles call them out from the pulpit in priesthood session. The worst part is, it gets worse as they get older. The girls become more convinced that they are too good for the guys because everytime they talk to someone about their lack of boyfriend that person says guys "are intimidated by her because she is so accomplished and beautiful." Our little princess is increasingly full of herself and disdainful of all men. She eschews all relationships with the opposite sex except for her overly close hero worship of her father (that she has never gotten over), advances her career, expands her ego, and becomes the head of Deseret Book.

Bottom line, if these girls want to date badly enough they will ask guys out. If these girls are so hot, the top tier of guys (the .05% that they think are worthy of them) will ask them out. Until we stop trying to create superwomen at the expense of our young men, this problem will get worse.

I was not a big dater in college.

There were many reasons (some would argue that it was mostly due to my radio face), but one of them was that I was not interested in dating for "fun".

I didn't want to go out with a chick that I wasn't attracted to. Waste of her time. Waste of my time.

I know I was probably in the minority.

I can see our links to the folks down in Colorado City weren't broken all that long ago. Hopefully over time we will consistently move further and further away from "their" viewpoint of managing the faithful.

Will no one stick up for the college aged single LDS Male?

Lets see... you are already paying for college and are working (generally). You are only 24 but everyone expects that you should be dating every weekend. BTW on the date you always pay (refer back to the first sentence).

Is it really so bad if you decide to stay and play halo with your roomates instead of shelling out $50 on date that most likely won't get you even a makeout when she finds out that you aren't premed or prelaw?

If the women are so concerned how about they ask men out.

Another idea...stop convincing the girls to dress like nuns. Even the most pitiful excuse for a college male will try to get up a very short skirt and if that means asking her out...fair enough.

LOL. Good one. Keep it coming.

Another solution...make the bitches pay for the date. I blew a lot of money in college on other men's wives.

I usually waited until the gals asked me out. I usually went out once a week.

beat me to it

Since we are into stereotyping:

My guess: LDS guys are deathly afraid of rejection - refuse to take risks.

My guess: LDS guys do not know how to date - not taught at the MTC.

My guess: Arch is right - no sex, no gain, no reason for pain.

My guess: LDS guys are preconditioned to believe that there will be bells, whistles and the bright light of personal revelation when they meet their "chosen one". Therefore, why bother with dating?

My guess: Too many LDS single women come across as desperate and pious.

My guess: LDS guys are intimidated by smart, aggressive women. They want to be just like Ward Cleaver - in charge and unchallenged.

I wasn't very forward about dating. And I REALLY wasn't forward about dating chicks I wasn't interested in.

So I had several women that were pretty forward with me. Asked me to hang out, etc. I was too nice to say "no". But after that one time, they generally never asked again.

The idea of my daughter finding herself single at age 23 is just fine with me, btw.

Getting desperate for a mate as an unmarried senior at BYU sometimes leads to disasters. Just ask Farrah.

The final guess is the type of thing that causes the problem. Our women convince themselves that if a guy doesn't a like a girl to be a frigid, ice princess, bitch he is "intimidated by smart, aggressive women."

What is shocking to me is that the figure for married grads is 60% and leaders are talking about a big problem. What is the problem??

You want to see the church divorce rate go up. Find a way to force that other 40% to get married before they get out of college.

I wonder if anyone consults psychologists or sociologists. Wait, I forgot we don't need to do that because everything concerning BYU comes from God.

One word for you: MASP.

Mormon American Sexless Princess.

Nerds are especially intimidated and BYU continues to narrow those who can come in favor of nerds. You can't have it both ways.

What they don't like is crying princesses asking them why they aren't getting asked out. There might not be a problem but when the little dolls cry the priesthood gets a lecture.

LOL. Then she gets married and becomes MASQWHSTNFP.

Mormon American Sexless Queen with Husband Searching The Net For Porn.

I don't doubt a shift in the mean or median dating experience but nobody has presented systematic evidence of a significant shift. Elder Oaks speech is probably the best evidence of a shift but it doesn't really get at magnitudes.

In my personal experience at BYU in the 90s I observed that the dating distribution was very concentrated. Pretty yet approachable girls where asked out very frequently. On the other hand, girls that were beautiful but less approachable often only had a few dates a semester. Steelblue's example could easily fit within pattern. I don't doubt a shift but I would like to see a whole lot better evidence before we indict BYU males or females in general.

Also true. Everyone knows that smart girls who are cute are "accomplished" and smart guys who don't play sports are nerds. Welcome to the new Y.