It's obvious some of you get a rush
 

From playing Devil's Advocate on just about any and everything.

But when it comes to evil radical Islamists....why anyone would is beyond rational comprehension.

I don't dispute that evil radical Islam exists.

I'm not sure that we all agree what to do about it.

I'd prefer to seduce them with Walmart and McDonalds, rather than sending my son to die.

I operate under the premise that almost everyone wants a decent life, a good job, a little bit of savings, a few luxury items, etc. Not to mention freedom.

So if you want to battle radical Islam right now, not in the arena of thought, discourse, and argument, but with war, how exactly do you wage war against an ideology? Do you propose we attempt to kill the "hundreds of millions" now or later? I think Iraq has taught us that exterminating a determined guerilla force is pretty dang difficult.

We have muscles. But if we win, it will be with our brains.

Mike,,they have declared war on us. Of that there is no doubt. You don't dispute it exists, but you seem to revel in playing Devil's Advocate on their behalf.

We can't just idly sit by and do nothing. We have to act before we're forced to react, and we're pretty much already in that position anyway.

How do you bring peace to a people's way of lifestyle,,how do you offer peace, when any contract, any accord, any handshake will never be worth crap, especially when you know the first chance thay have to slit your throat behind your back after you sign it...they'll do it.

What it will take for people to get this through their heads?

I have my opinion. You have yours.

So what are you doing about all this? Does your view matter? Does mine?

I think you are mixing concepts. First, you suggest we seduce them with materialism. This will not work, IMO, as this is precisely what they find most objectionable about our culture. They do not want your life. They reject yoir lifestyle.

I do agree, however, with the idea that if we are to win, it must be through our brains (IOW ideas). Unfortunately, I am not sure if the ideas inherent in our own culture (and I am sure SeattleU would opine much more eloquently than I on this notion) are sufficianetly embraced by our government and our people to be used in the battle of ideas. WalMart will not work; the Founding Fathers might. The question is how to assert these ideas in a way that saves the lives of our sons while still protecting our vital interests and security in the mean time.

Iraq is not a good analogy to the problem of radical Islam amd radicalized muslims. There are simply too many muslims that hate us and they are too deeply mixed with too many other people for us to ever hope to prevail in a traditional miltiary sense. Iraq will have to be dealt with on its own terms. Our approach to the larger problem presented by radical islam must be dealt with through other means.

Hell yes our views matter, but you're still not answering the question of why you're playing Devils Advocate on behalf of the extremists? If anything you're avoiding it.

you are sounding like charlie brown's teacher. why don't you tackle a specific sentence or paragraph I have written. I can't respond to charlie brown's teacher.

I also note that you have offered no solutions, nor have you proposed any actions other than I presume, everyone agreeing with you.

You have a misunderstanding of what will work.

I disagree that they do not want materialism.

I also disagree that democracy can exist in an uneducated, deprived society. We must have them develop a middle class, desire materialism and thereafter desire and obtain education in addition to individualism. Only that can make them wean themselves from the tit of terroisim.

You still haven't answered the question.

My response is that we must continue to defend ourselves and if that means pre-emptive strikes on Hitler like regimes who's soul purpose and belief is that anyone who does not believe as them must be annhiliated,,then yeah I don't have a problem with that.

The exact strategem behind that,,I'm not sure.

How do you approach diplomacy with people who'd not have a 2nd thought about taking the pen you're about to sign with and stab you in the neck with it?

So are you going to answer why you play Devil's Advocate to Islamic terrorists or are you going to keep dodging it?

Unfortunately they teach hate at the early stages of childhood in their schools and their textbooks.

It's pretty chilling to see a 3 year old girl saying she'd like to drink the blood of a Jew.

The problem is daunting.

However, we have neither the ability nor the will to strike long and hard enough to make preemptive strikes. We cannot subvert their seemingly endless supply of terroists and bombs. We don't even have an understanding how to subvert their horrible mindwashings of their peoples.

It is a very difficult problem, but no answers seem to be working.

Nuke them? Untenable and I don't believe God would have us prosper if we did something so horrendous.

Continual preemptive strikes? Lots of good that has done us. We have Afghanistan, Iraq, Gaza, Lebanon, Somalia, Libya, Algeria, Syria and Iran. Gee, we've done a great job, not to mention the Phillipines, Malaysia, Indonesia.

It is a horribly difficult problem and we've approached it too simplistically.

It's also disturbing to see young jewish girls write messages to arabs on bombs.

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What you say is true and has a lot of logic to it.

I'm not sure myself of the perfect solutions, as it's obvious there are none. I just don't understand the mentality by some of forgetting that you, I, my neighbor, etc....have had war declared on us.

I don't understand that mentality. I don't understand the advocacy mentality of those talking about Radical Islamists.

Unfortunately all the good stuff we do gets wiped away by Gitmo and Abu Ghraib, the rape/murder by those idiots, allegations of torture, etc.

If you don't care what they think, then murder them.

If you care about morality, THEN CARE ABOUT MORALITY!

You're still not answering the question. Honestly, who's side are you on?

I didn't say democarcy, although my flip refernce to the founding fathers was misleading. I mean they must be weaned from their radicalism. they may come to be more materialistic as a result of their detachment from the most radical strains of thought, but they will not be first seduced by materialism. In fact, thinking this can happen strikes me as rather silly. Besides, how do you inseret a 'desire' for materialism without first injecting other cultural concepts that make it relevant to their lives and belif systems? If anything, I think you have your list above completyely backwards.

This is more than just a matter of having access to material possessions. [By the way, you say you disagree that they wanty materialism. I assume you mean that you disagreee that they want material possessions, as it is clear beyonf cavil that the radical islamic culture rejects thre values of amterialism] If it were, we would not see so many radical muslims in Germany, France and other European countries (or even in Indoneisa, for that matter). This is a war of cultures, of ideas. Economic progress may be important, but it is not the answer, or an exclusive first step.

You are right about one thing; I don't ahve the answers, but I certainly don't think seduction by Wal-Mart should be the focus.

I'm on the Lord's side. Whose side are you on?

I think both of you are right.

And sadly it's going to take a couple of generations at the minimum if this kind of Nazi-istic and Satanic hatred is to be reversed.

You gonna ever answer the question or just keep being smug? I know you enjoy the mind games, but how about taking an honest stab at the question.

You guys talk like everything is going so poorly.

Syria was forced to withdraw from Lebanon. Libya has made amends with the West and seeks greater integration. Egypt is more worried about Palestinian refugees than they care about Israel. Iraq has a fledgling democracy. Until the mullahs cracked down recently, Iran was on a path to greater liberalization. Pakistan continues to cooperate with us (at least not openly oppose us). Millions of Muslims live peacefully in the United States. Millions more in Indonesia.

Yes, we have some bad players. We have some bad religious leaders. We have people that adhere to this craziness. So what should we do about it?

"I DON'T KNOW WHAT WE SHOULD DO, BUT MAN, I'M CALLING YOU OUT, BECAUSE YOU'RE A SATANIC RADICAL ISLAM-LOVER, WHO SUPPORTS MURDER AND TERROR"

sorry, I'm done with that conversation.

No, I'm serious. I'm on the Lord's side. If more people were on the Lord's side we wouldn't have this mess.

Agreed, but are you gonna answer the question of why you enjoy/insist on playing Devil's Advocate so much? Especially in a situation where you've literally had war declared on you and your family?

Perhaps Mike has already answered your question, Rocky, but it's not the answer you want to hear?

As for war being declared on us, other than the two attacks on the Twin Towers, the battle is not on US soil. I'm no pacifist - at least not in the political sense - but until we really have to defend ourselves, I believe the counsel of the Lord to "turn the other cheek" is pretty good advice. Should they hit the US again, then it would be time to strike back with a show of force of what they're really up against. Blowing them all up on their soil only pisses off everyone else. Blowing them up on US soil gives the rest of the world no reason to be upset - though many probably will still be.

There are no simple answers to the mess in the Middle East.

Quite frankly....we all know the whole world will be at war before Christ returns, and that one-third of the population will be killed.

It's inevitable.

I say let's get it over with and rush in the millennium. I for one would rather live in the terrestrial millennium twenty years from now, rather than thirty.

Hezbollah and other terrorist groups are evil. No question about it. It is scary. But Rocky, you talk about the terrorist groups declaring war on the U.S...yes, it is easy to say but if you view it from these groups, they believe that the U.S. has declared war on them. It is all a matter of perception. The U.S. at war with Iraq is viewed very differently: From the US perspective, we are trying to stop an evil man. From many in the Arab world, they view it as the U.S. putting their noses and their guns on one of their countries.

I don't have any answers. I will not defend the terrorists. Nobody should. But I am also willing to accept that the U.S. is often a bully in situations that it does not need to be in. Terrorism needs to be stopped...but often the U.S. enflames it with its policies and its take it to them attitude. Bush summed it up by saying 'You are for us or against us' and there is no middle ground or no understanding of the gray areas.

We are quick to condemn those that are fighting Israel though we do so without realizing that Israel is not at all blameless. I am not defending terrorists or terrorism. The Israeli--radical element battles have raged for hundreds of years and both sides have made mistakes and errors.

No question, I am on Israel's side. But Israel has a lot of faults and has made a lot of historical mistakes. Israel is hated and Israel hates and sadly, this will continue on for decades and decades.

I'm pretty sure your post was TIC, but it worries when I think that people on both sides of the conflict hold an apocalyptic world view. The decision to begin WWIII is much easier to make when people believe they are merely fulfilling prophesy. I think I'd sleep easier at night if all our political leaders were atheists.

its also a lot easier when the conflagration is likely to take place "over there" injstead of here in our front yard. I don't want atheists, but adherence to christian principles would e good.

one thing I have to hand to 187_skillz.

He puts his money where his mouth is. He tacitly approves genocide, and he chooses to be in the military, to put himself in harms way.

A lot of people around here talk big, but I don't see them going out and trying to actually take it to the enemy.

I read about a woman in Arizona, 41 years old, just enlisted.

Do you have to go fight anybody who tries to pick a fight with you?

I honestly believe that this struggle will not end until one side shows that it means not to fight. The only way to effectively show this disposition is by your own blood-- the Ammonites come to mind.

You ask who's side he is on. Is it wrong to say that, even though he is an American loyal to his country, that he wants peace for the sake of his brothers on the other side of the line?

So basically you just pussed out on answering the question. Buck up Mike.

We're not picking a fight. We're defending ourselves and sometimes if pre-emptive strikes are required then so be it.

It's not wrong to say it, more than ever people need to decide what they believe in and what they're willing to fight for,,,instead we have those just hem and haw and justify both sides, make excuses, and never have any clarity about where they stand and what they stand for.

People need to start getting a set.

But they're defending themselves, too.

We're all defending ourselves. And as long as we're all defending ourselves, when will the fighting stop?

So we just throw down our weapons and say..."Ok, I'll let you kill me." Wake up.

Yeah a terrorist who flies a plane in the world trade center is just "defending himself." What a crock of shit.

Worked for the Anti-Nephi-Lehi's. Even Moroni was willing to let his enemies go with only a promise not to fight again, knowing how easily and likely that oath was to be broken.

The other option is the elimination of one side, the other, or both. You choose.

Exactly.

Moroni apparently left it upon the heads of the covenant makers.

I kinda like the gospel being preached to the captives but a secular government couldn't demand that.

Different times, different results. Weak and unrealistic comparison in this day and age and you know it.

"Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing."

Just what do you suppose the Book of Mormon is? A nifty storybook meant to frame the gospel message it contains?

The comparison of the Book of Mormon to modern times is only weak and unrealistic until it is repeated, as we have been assured is inevitable. It was sure unrealistic that an Amalickiah could possibly show up, usurp a government, and start a major war until Hitler and Stalin arrived on the world scene. The Book of Mormon is not just a MESSAGE. It is a WARNING, and if it's not followed, it will be repeated.

Unrealistic? No, it is the price of peace. You are willing to give up the lives of others to gain peace, but are you willing to give up your own?

That's right and it's being repeated right now. It happened during Hitler's age and now the Terrorists who seek to kill you and your family are repeating that. If they had their druthers you'd be wiped off the face of the map.

Mike keeps on making subtle clever jabs about those want genocide and who are for the annihliation of Muslims and the faith of Islam. I've yet to say it myself or others make that claim, though I'm sure they're out there. But you don't see them running around in droves, in packs, teaching their kids from birth to kill, hate and annihilate.

Whether we as citizens of America like it or not, we're in a position where REACTING is a dangerous stance. We must be pro-active on the war on terror instead of making apologies for those small percentages of those in the Islam faith who're wanting to destroy Jews, Christians and anyone who thinks differently. Someone says to take them out and that statement is skewed by apologists.

I don't know the perfect solution as there is not one, but we can't sit idly by, while making excuses for the other side.

This isn't a day and age and this isn't a fight that someone should ever be neutral on.

In my mind excuses for them and stances of neutrality all while deliberately mis-representing others views is a slap in the face of our soldiers and the families of those who've spilled their blood to protect us in this war.

Discussing options, contemplating consequences before taking actions shouldn't be viewed as "sitting idly by doing nothing".

In light of the many problems over there, it seems more rational to review carefully the options, lay out a plan and to follow it.

I don't know about you, but sending sons and daughters to war is NOT appealing. My children are approaching that age and I hope they do not choose that profession, honorable as it truly is. I want to see them grow up old with grandchildren of their own. I'm selfish that way.

Moreover, I do not want for myself, or for anybody I know, to become good at killing. Killing, even in defense, should be an abhorrent thing, done out of necessity. To desensitize that feeling would be a travesty IMHO.

We should take cautious actino whenever the lives of our sons and daughters are involved.

And how do you respond to people who are out to kill you?

You acknowledged that history "is repeating itself now." Are you likewise able to find a solution? And just for fun, could you find it from the Book of Mormon?