Church seems short compared to...
 

So it's about 10:30 at night, already past taps, the asst. Scoutmaster of the other LDS troop has made cobbler. Everyone is assembled and we are ready to eat.

My SPL calls on one of the older boys from the other troop to say the prayer. This guy, let's call him John....is a really Napoleon Dynamite character. He's 16 and at scout camp. He came directly from high adventure with the older boys. He's an Eagle Scout and this is his umpteenth time at camp. The next oldest boy in his troop is 13.

He's very smart, his dad is the Stake Pres., and he's homeschooled. But terribly weird and awkward like ND.

Anyway, so he is called on to say the prayer. He starts off by saying "we are thankful for the opportunity to audition for the skit, we ask that we might be selected to participate." I swear, he then went onto about 50 other subjects. It was a sincere prayer, but there was no topic not covered in that prayer. It was literally 10 minutes long. I was having trouble not laughing during the prayer (which I desperately stifled, because the bishop of the other ward was there). When he finished, the other scouts all groaned, "that's the longest prayer I've ever heard!" "thanks for the talk" "you blessed the food 3 times". Me and another asst. scoutmaster could not contain ourselves any longer. We were ROTFLMAO.

So after cobbler, the bishop decides he better give a little speech. He went through every phrase of the scout oath, every word in the scout law, asking questions and explaining each facet, in addition to explaining the "on my honor" award. It was about 20 minutes. And very painful.

He is a former scoutmaster, and should remember that such times are called "the scoutmaster minute." MINUTE.

....

It has struck me how very unironic scouting is. It is touching in a way. All these leaders, all these boys, learning skills, emphasis on morals. Learning to be men. The many young boys who look you in the eye, greet you with a "sir" tacked on the end.

To be involved in scouting as an adult is optimism at its best. You cannot be a cynic as to the future, and be in scouting. You cannot be a post-modern cynic lobbing grenades from the nose-bleeds. You are on the ground, building the future. It is refreshing to see and be a part of.

Ah, good times. You wouldn't believe how many stories I have from scout camp. Here are a couple:

We did a backpacking trip in the Uintahs and our SPL was giddy with excitement on the way in. He loved to fish and we were going to a prime spot. The fishing ended up being outstanding that year, but the poor kid got homesick and spent the entire week in his tent. He would come out occasionally to throw up or go to the can, but that was about it. Then on Friday night he started to show some life since we were going home the next morning. We were having our Friday night campfire and my assistant says "Well, boys. We have an exciting announcement to make. Earlier today we found a spot where we could get cell phone reception and we had a chat with the bishop and he gave us permission to stay another three days. Woohoo!". It was a cruel trick, but we just couldn't resist. The poor kid looked like he just got kicked in the crotch. Just as the tears were about to come out we let him know that we were just kidding.

On another year, we had a kid eat all kinds of junk food on the way to camp. He literally ate his entire stash of candy on the first day (that's pretty common, actually). We put most of the scouts into a great big ten-man tent that night. At about 3 am, this scout stood up and did a projectile vomit over all of the other scouts (picture a rotating sprinkler head). Then as we were cleaning up, he kicked over a lantern and fried another scouts sleeping bag. I was pretty proud of my boys for not lynching the kid on the spot.

I could go on like this for days. Kids do the darnedest things. Have fun, Mike.

it's amazing how fast those kids go thru their spending money at the trading post.

one interesting tidbit about our group is that the boys are only about 10% white. We are the "ghetto" troop, in a sea of lilly white. We are mostly hispanic, a few whites, a few blacks.

A couple of the kids are from Sierra Leone. How weird is that? To be in civil war in Africa two years ago, and then to be in a LDS troop at scout camp in Oklahoma. The one kid whom I've got to know a bit bit, Mohammed....good kid.

Despite the fact he got a corner ripped of his Tote-n-Chip two days ago.

:)

This is a first rate essay, Mike. And something that should attract interest given scouting's somewhat controversial image these days. You should try to publish maybe a little more extended version of it someplace. I recall reading a very roughly similar piece by a NY Times reporter, this foot soldier of the liberal media's most hallowed organ. He almost sheepishly began writing that his son drug him off to Boy Scouts camp. He wound up telling about how touched and impressed he was in much the same way you have done.

Three weeks ago Faith and I took a group of kids from the inner-city school up for some fresh air and a high ropes leadership course Several of the kids were gay. As much as I appreciate the IDEA of scouting and what it is supposed to teach, I worry that it is a wolf in sheep's clothing... teaching kids homophobic bigotry before they are old enough to think through the issues. Even if the gay kidss had WANTED to go to scout camp and have the great experiences that you described, the BSA would have prevented it. I am happy to put my optimism elsewhere. Faith is the teaching coordinator of the Gay Straight Alliance. SHE epitomizes optimism at its best, imo.

Is that a grenade lob from the nose-bleeds? Sorry to be so negative. I have so many positive memories of scouting as a young man that I find the recent shift in the BSA interpretation of 'morally straight' to be particulary sad, particulary in light of so many kids that Faith and I know who could otherwise benefit from scouting. Even if I wanted to recommend scouting to some of these kids, the BSA would turn them away.

Keep up the good work, and try not to do more damage than good (I'm sure you will be better than most LDS scout leaders in that department).

Wonders never cease...

My scouting experience was great when I was growing up. My last scout campout, ever, was when I was 14 and the other guys in the troop busted out their stash of cocaine and started getting loaded. It was at that point that enough was enough and I never went back.

Robin -

The BSA is a private organization and if they don't want gay leaders, they don't have to have any gay leaders. They teach kids to be morally straight and because their definition of "morally straight" is different than yours, it doesn't make them wrong.

So I ask -other than your opinion, what proof do you have that the BSA is homophobic?

You mean other than that it won't allow gay leaders? That seems to be the very definition of it to me.

Again, it's a private organization. It doesn't have to allow anybody to be leaders. And what legitimate proof is there that it's based on homophobia?

They won't take gay kids either. If I wanted to recommend scouting to the kids that I took to the ropes course, they would show up, and if they were 'honest and obedient' they would admit that they were openly gay, and then, whether they were sexually active or not, the BSA would bar them from scouting.

The meaning of 'morally straight' has changed over the years. Do you really think that Baden-Powel, who was probably gay himself, interpreted 'morally straight' in the LDS-centric way that that BSA interprets the term today? It is one of the quirky aspects of Mormonism -- morality = sexual morality.l

Okay, so it's a private organization. How is that relevant to whether it's homophobe? So is the KKK; does that make it not racist? (I'm not equating the BSA with the KKK, unlike Steve Benson; just making a point.)

Way to dodge my question.

And the definition of morally straight is relevant as to what one thinks it is. Always has been, always will be.

I think the KKK is racist. Their activities of murder is legitimate proof that it is an organization based on racism.

Again, where is the legitimate proof that the BSA is homophobic? Why not answer my question rather than divert attention to something else?

Hmmm... define 'legitimate proof.' Then define 'homophobia.' Then tell me of a single person who is 'homophobic,' and offer 'legitimate proof.'

The KKK does not officially support murder. It has, in the past, cutivated a culture where individuals murdered blacks, even though this was against the official policy of the klan.

I hear the homophobic accusation whenever anyone disagrees with anything to to with the gay agenda or gays themselves. It seems to be an easy way to manipulate things in order to get what the pro-gay crowd wants.

You have yet to answer the question - are you conceding that it's your opinion only that the BSA is homphobic?

It is BSA's ball. They get to make the rules.

I am fine with that.

If they said "no fat white kids" then I am fine with that too.

We will create our own FWSA (Fat White Scouts of America)

Why go somewhere where we aren't wanted?



This is my biggest problem with everything gay. You are either with them or against them. I call Bull.

Way to hijack the thread, guys. What started out as a nice observation turns into yet another gay debate. Sigh...

I apologize, as it's probably my fault for asking the question about proof.

My bad.

I agree. Sorry guys. I have a lot of respect for the BSA of my youth, and many fond memories. I am sure that Mike is following more in that tradition than teaching homophobia. Every kid needs to spend a week or two each year 'roughing it' in the country. Props to Mike for making that happen.

A couple stories from my many years at scout camp. Ok two years and both years i was sent home.

year 1, 14 years old it was about 2 am and I had to take the biggest crap. I go to the bathroom and there is no toilet paper, all the leaders are sleeping and at 14 pooping was still sort of embarrassing, right next to the bathroom was a tent of a kid I really didnt like, so I reach in his backpack while he is sleeping and pull out a t-shirt, I crap wipe, and put it back.

I guess I was to loud because someone saw me do it, I got ratted out and sent home.

year 2, I get a 2 hour lecture from the bishop before I am allowed to go. So the first night I go out for a little hike and find about a 30 foot dead pine tree, I drag it bag to camp with the help of a friend, we start a fairly big fire and throw the pine tree in there, It went up like you have never seen, it actually caused the forest service to come out because the the flames were 50 plus feet in the air. On top of that we took a pack of lighters and were throwing them in the fire and watching them pop. Shortly after I was sent home and never allowed back.

Those were still great times.

I guess I was in a weird ward by everyone else's standards because we went to scout camp, most of us, up until around 17. Small ward, small town, "simple folk," supportive parents and leaders that made it the fun thing to do. I had a blast getting to be one of the older kids there and picking on the little kids. CIrcle of life thing.

Holy cow, Junkie. You should be in the bad scout hall of fame.

I really don't have a lot of sympathy for those high-minded people who have excuses for not getting involved, or disparage good organizations for this reason or that.

"I abandoned my responsibility to help young men in the church grow and develop because of [insert bullshit reason here]."

"I loved scouts, but I find it so morally reprehensible that scouts don't [insert bullshit reason here] that I cannot be involved."

Fact is the church and scouts don't need dope-smoking riff-raff as leaders anyway.

So, I guess it is a WIN-WIN.

One of my friends, who is estranged from the church, whom I approached about being involved in my troop....I expected him to possibly say 'I don't agree with scouting policy on...therefore I cannot in good conscience..."

Nothing of the sort. Due to time/work he is not involved, but I hope to pull him in eventually.

btw, it is obvious that gays are in scouts. It's just like the military, "don't ask don't tell."

I guess this would lead to some not being able to support the efforts of the military, and not believing that the military does worthy work.

I always wonder when these sort of things stop being a sincere prayer / talk and turn into an ego trip. There are very few people I'm interested in listening to for more than five minutes. You can be sincere in 30 seconds. With the kid, I understand that being nervous in front of a crowd can cause you to ramble a bit, but when things like that happen, they're usually following the example of a blow-hard parent.

I hate long public prayers that are really sermons, and I hate long, pointless speeches. Are people clueless? Can't you see a bunch of teenagers in front of you, getting restless after twenty minutes of sermonizing to them? It doesn't mean they're rude. It means you're boring.

personally I think the church should install a gong. That way whenever someone gets longwinded you could run up the front and bang the gong and they would have to stop

in this kid's defense, he is so quirky, that I do not believe it was an ego trip at all.

Here is another classic from this same kid. he is tenting with the 14yo kid from Sierra Leone. A very small kid named Mohammed.

"6:30???!!! MOHAMMED, WAKE UP! WAKE UP! WE'RE LATE FOR THE MILE SWIM PRACTICE! OOOOHHHHH! DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT THEY WILL NOT LET US DO IT? I CAN'T BELIEVE IT. TURN AROUND. TURN AROUND. I'M PUTTING ON MY SWIM TRUNKS. TURN AROUND!......COME ON. WE HAVE TO GO NOW!"

Poor Mohammed. This scene repeated itself the next morning, when he got up at 6:45am (again late).

How about his parents? Do they tend to give sermony prayers? I bet they do - they home school him, after all

I don't know if his dad, the stake president, gives sermony prayers or not. or rather, very long prayers. I do know that his dad gives very long talks, however (most of which are entertaining and good, due to his profuse knowledge of anecdotes from church history, sprinkled with quotes from J. Golden).

Wow Mike. This was supposed to be a nice thread, as Homeboy pointed out, and I even apologized for bringing up the gay thing, then I voiced appreciation for what you are doing personally, and then I dropped it.

If we both agree that it was probably a WIN-WIN that I give up my calling as Young Men's president when I left the church then why the hostility?

who said I was referring to you? You think that you're the only riff-raff in the world?

People who walk away are a dime a dozen.

The dope-smoking part, which imo is an unfair characterization, gave it away. ;)

I know what you mean. Just the other day I heard some old geezer who lived as a young man in Germany in the '30's and early '40's say: "I loved the Hitler youth, it taught so many things about discipline, self-reliance, and pride in one's community and nation, but I it found it so morally reprehensible that the HY [insert bullshit reason here] that I could not remain involved."

Someone remind me the name of the web axiom that says something like once you invoke a comparison to hitler/nazis you have lost the argument.

This seems a little weak for you, SU.

Mike nice report.

If Robin doesn't like not hanging around gay people, that's his choice.

You're warming me up to scouting. My sons love scouting. I support them because I love my sons to death, even if I'm not that sold on scouting, not having been a scout myself.

I really don't like camping that much, and I am not that sold on some of the snot-nosed kids. However, anything my boys love, who are dear to my heart, I will support my boys.

We have an impressive troop. Our scoutleaders are devoted, and knowledgeable. Most of our boys will earn Eagles and mine for example is on track for his Eagle shortly after his thirteenth birthday. Most of the other boys are.

Thanks Mike.

I'm not saying the Hitler Yuouth and Boy Scouts are alike. Just poking fun at Mike's logic. I do understand why someone would choose not to participate in the BSA (someone who was straight) because of its discrimination against gays and wouldn't necessarily question their motives. I also repect those such as Mike who do choose to participate and serve.

The logic is correct, even if you don't like the comparison.

Some people just have a higher threshold for contradiction in life.

As Camus once said, "But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads."

Oh yeah, the gong is always a good way to go. Here are some others.

Excellent ideas, each and every one.

I would suggest the "this movie is so bad that I am going to leave" method. Just get up, gather the family and walk out of the chapel and go home.

Then there is the not so subtle method of my 7 year old - I'd give him a microphone and he'd state his opinion of whoever is at the pulpit: "This guy is the most boring person in the world."

Or how about the "throw tomatoes at the speaker" method? Rather messy, but effective.