Similarities between Mormons and Muslims
 

Sometimes I am struck by this. The average conservative Mormon doesn't much care for Islam or Muslims, yet remains oblivious to how similar they are to each other.

1. An emphasis on how women dress. They should dress modestly. How long ago was it that garments went to the wrists and the ankles? That's been relaxed for a long time, but there is a huge emphasis on how girls and women dress. http://www.cougarboard.com/board/mes...ml?id=16306815

2. Moral police. Iran literally has moral police. So does BYU via the honor code.

3. Not a true belief in the freedom of religion. When a non-Mormon joins the church, there is a celebration. If a Mormon at BYU joins a different church, there is an expulsion.

4. Strong antipathy toward gays. A guy on CB said I must be inactive or not paying attention if I don't think the church leadership hasn't been reaching out with love towards gay Mormons and the gay community. I asked him if he can recall a single general conference talk whose subject was about loving and accepting gays. I can't recall one. Neither can my wife. So far, I guess he can't either. Meanwhile on CB you see a real strong hatred towards the "LGBT movement". I think it's impossible that some of that is not bleeding over into hatred of gay persons themselves.

5. The idea that religious freedom means one should not experience any social repercussions for ones beliefs. I made this comment on CB, that the same people who rail against Sharia law are the ones who are protesting lack of religious freedom if the Big 12 doesn't accept BYU.

So does this mean that I support naked women, involved in orgies, with a little gay mixed in, with no religious consequence?

No.

But remember back in the earliest days of the church, the national media considered Mormonism to the American version of Islam. I'd like to see us not return to that.

6. polygamy

7. Theological basis for theocracy.

Man, you've barely scratched the surface.

8. First Vision

9. Near-deified founding "prophet"

10. Veils

11. Book of Mormon & D&C/Koran

12. Gender separation in worship

13. Word of Wisdom

14. Born on the frontiers of and in reaction to a great civilization whose roots are primarily found in Classical traditions

15. Radical splinter groups and unrealistic denial of shared history and traditions

16. Subordination of women achieved not just doctrinally but through societally enforced early marriage and heavy child bearing and disproportionate child rearing burdens and denial of education and worldly occupations to women

17. Visceral antagonism toward contiguous civilizations rooted in Classical civilizations and the Enlightenment

18. Cloak of denial around the derivative quality of their own religious tradition and civilization and debt to civilizations they hate

19. Progressive members trapped in the tradition but hopeful of reformation, which more orthodox elements understand would effectively kill the distinctiveness of the institution and therefore the institution itself

20. Nomadic history

21. Intermarriage intolerance

22. Clothing prescriptions for all

21. Absolute intolerance of dissent

22. Bearing testimonies

23. Great Apostasy/one true church/last dispensation dogma

24. Sexualized eternal salvation lore

(I could probably sit here all day and think of similarities. Islam and Mormonism are just alike.)

You make some good points.

I think a lot of Mormon mullahs would be taken aback by their own behavior if they realized how close it is to Islam.

Because almost none of these people want to say that they admire Islam. Since 9/11. Before 9/11, yes, some would probably say they admired Islam.

I've mentioned before, one of our CG members who spent time in Afghanistan, years ago, commented on how similar Islam is to Mormonism, in a positive way. But I think he's abandoned that line of thinking. At least in public.

Just had someone today on FB rail on the clothes that the women playing beach volleyball are wearing.

I think it's a bad look for Mormon men to be railing on the use of bikinis in sport. Maybe I'm possessed by Satan to think this (as has been intimated on CB).

The LDS Church is what it is. Harold Bloom and others have written some interesting stuff about the earliest schism in Christianity between Pauline Christianity and James's original, more hard core, more Jewish derivative, more ascetic, more rural monotheism that probably was the form of Christianity most influential to Islam (a close reading of the NT reveals the split; for example, the council that was very tense during the famine in the 60s and the debates over circumcision; and James's diminishment as a character in the canonized gospels). (I dramatized that schism in my novel Logos.)

It's interesting how looking back you see this split in the monotheism tree rising up to today. I submit that the Germanic part of the Protestant reformation itself was a reaction to the Renaissance--rediscovery of Europe's Classical heritage and achievements--and yearning to go back to James, and of course occurred sort of in the sticks and outside of the Renaissance ferment. The Protestant reformation informed Mormonism---as obviously did Islam--and these inputs were attractive to many who disapproved of the Enlightenment and modernism. You see this division within Judaism--orthodox and reform Judaism.

Mormonism's role seems to be on the Jamesian branch, or, it will cease to be Mormonism.

Mormonism's future is to emphasize original Mormonism. Joseph Smith-style Mormonism. Eternal marriage, eternal families, Mother in Heaven, etc. All the "weirdness."

If Mormonism seeks to be just another Protestant religion (but a highly conservative one), it will fail.

In some ways, I believe, in seeking unity and approval from the Christian right, Mormonism veers from its true path.

So true. But even surer death would be becoming Unitarian-style Mormonism like the RLDS (or whatever fungible unmemorable name they call themselves now). Look how that's slowly ravaged mainline Protestantism.

This is making me realize what it must be like to be a moderate Muslim. And that being a moderate Mormon is a little bit like being a moderate Muslim. The main difference being that you are less likely to be murdered as a moderate Mormon.

People in the west like to demand that moderate Muslims change and reform Islam. But how?

How as a moderate Mormon, would I go about any kind of reform of Mormonism? I don't have any levers. I don't have power or position or responsibility on any kind of scale to make a difference. State some opinions on blogs or social media.

I feel like Mormonism is in a lot more flux than Islam. But that could be a product of my ignorance of Islam. What I mean is that we could have radical changes in policies in Mormonism in a very short period of time. For example, polygamy and blacks in the priesthood. We could wake up tomorrow to a new revelation on homosexuality that wraps them and includes them in the plan of salvation in a way that was previously not known. I doubt that kind of thing would happen in Islam in the same time frame.

Where the comparison breaks down is that Mormonism has evolved into this neat hierarchy that more resembles Catholicism, whereas Islam is huge as all of Christendom and infinitely diverse culturally even with many adherents in Asia and large subgroups. So change in Islam necessarily occurs in ways that seem trivial in relation to Islam overall, but examined discretely can be profound and involve millions of people. For example, I think Islam in the United States (despite Trump's claims) has developed an overall impressive record of assimilation and easy and mutually respectful relations with our country's religious and secular elements--much better than Europe. Islam is different here. Also, Islam is more important because of its size and reach into secular authority. So you have moderate Muslims such as Malala Yousafzai, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, and Reza Aslan who capture the admiration of people across the world regardless of faith. Mormon moderates are not international celebrities because Mormonism is essentially a footnote, and if they achieve any celebrity they seem inevitably to become outcasts from the faith. Because Mormonism is more tightly organized, smaller and homogenous its moderates who achieve any celebrity usually become enemies of Mormonism.

Joanna Brooks, Jana Riess. Two women on the front-lines, who aren't really in the crosshairs, but who knows, they could feel the sting of excommunication. Just depends on which direction the hardliners go and how empowered they are.

One might be able to make the argument that someone like Chieko Okazaki was a moderate that found her way to at least figurehead power (no formal power as a member of the RS general presidency).

If BYU loses out to the Big 12 over social issues, I think that could be a useful signpost. It's already stimulating a lot of conversation and debate. The question is whether it will cause reform or retrenchment.

Personally I'm frustrated with the pace of reform on this rape-gate honor code thing at BYU. They should have had some initial changes announced already. But what I take away from this is that the BYU president feels he has no power to make any kind of change on his own, and has just off-loaded this onto others--a committee. And he will just be a middle man, shuttling recommendations from the committee to the board.

The essays on controversial topics that are on the web, most released with no fanfare except for mention from SLTrib and bloggers and such....they indicate at some level that a certain amount of "moderateness" is accurate and necessary for this church to go forward. What has not happened is these topics finding their way into general conference and local church proceedings. At least not from what I have observed.

But it is an indication that over the years, moderate positions will triumph over the black/white doctrinal hardliners who have previously taken up indefensible positions and by doing so have caused harm to the church. For which they take no public responsibility (for the most part).

I have lost hope that change will be made in time to save Mormonism's soul. Or it may wander and dwindle before it finds itself again.

Dissent will not be tolerated and will continue to be treated as medieval Catholicism treated dissent.

BYU's leaders have no power and the fact that rapegate has no new policies shouts to the heavens that the old guard still can't understand why the rest of the world rejects autocratic management. The inner circles of Church management must be confounded.

Proposition 8 sounded the deathknell on the advance of Mormonism. The subtle changes of small advances of moderate Mormon women may come too late.

I've never understood this notion of reforming a religion. Maybe because I just left. But it seems to me much like trying to "reform" a person's sexual preference. Being society's most conservative element, laying down the law, resisting progress, a magic world view that stands in opposition to science seem fundamental to what religion is. It's yet to be seen whether a religion can be "reformed" and survive. The ones that have moved overtly to the left are dying. As I type this I realize that the LDS Church's rejection of polygamy was a reform, but that was so outside of even the fringes.

The religion that I have seen most at peace with itself and in an easy relation with secularism was Italian Catholicism, typified by this beautiful inlaid artwork in the Siena Cathedral depicting Romulus and Remus:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siena_..._tango7174.jpg

A lovely and frank acknowledgment of religion's essentially mythological roots and quality and debt to antiquity.

The change on blacks and the priesthood is the obvious example of how reform can happen. I believe most orthodox Mormon's will now bristle and disavow racist statements by early church leaders.

The "infallibility of church leaders" position seems to be softening as well which will allow for evolution in official church positions over time.

The best part of Mormonism was that man has divine origins and each individual may have contact with the divinity, that relationships are important and lasting. That has been supplanted by the bureaucratic Church. That is something the Catholic Church has never had.

Mormonism, unfortunately, has never inspired great works of art. Instead it is a stoic work of conservatism, asceticism and denial.

Of course, most religious movements are inspired by one charismatic leader followed by the damn bureaucrats.

But there were many who went kicking and screaming. If gays were somehow incorporated into LDS theology, you'd see some kicking and screaming. The rule of obedience would change the opinions of many.

there would be a substantial proportion of Mormons, who wouldn't describe themselves as liberal or moderates who would be relieved, just by virtue of the fact that they are sick of the church as being defined by gay rights issues.

Probably so. There are also members who like the position because they don't like gays.

I agree.

There are still many members who have trouble accepting the idea that the ban on blacks wasn't straight from the mouth of God.

There are two changes, when and if they come, which will have members rocking and doubting, women receiving the priesthood and acceptance of gays.

If those two ever happen, you will see a lot of formerly rigid devotees doubting their testimonies.

They changed the policy for former members apparently under the Honor Code.

http://www.ldsliving.com/BYU-Changes...nation/s/82901

A small, infinitesimally minute measure of improvement.

Mormonism will survive. We need to step outside the focus on the modern West. Russian infants are all baptized into Orthodoxy again, and the Church is seeing modest gains in Eastern Europe. Evangelical Christianity is on fire in China (now 7% of population).

Once we resolve this gay problem, the Church can return to its growth trajectory.

I think we need a medical alternative to the largely-unsuccessful conversion therapies. That would partially solve the issue.

You want a medical surgery? OMG, please retract that. Nature creates these tendencies.

The cure for the gay.... hmmm.... I don't think that is coming.

I bet gayness it is part of God's plan for us to learn a thing or two. Oh noes! Did I really say that??!!!

No, surgery is not required. They did it in mice just by altering seratonin levels. Did you just call homosexuality a tendency? That's going to upset exmos and progmos.