Atheists sue
 

over discrimination and separation of church and state.

They claim the daughter was kicked off of the basketball team because she refused to participate in pre-game prayer. The school claims the daughter was always treated fairly and that the father physically assaulted the school principal (he was found not guilty of assault).

The 20/20 video is hard to watch because you can see how deeply she was hurt by the Christian kids and their ostracism of her.

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=3164811

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H48tFhpwD74

I work with a woman of the Jewish faith (Deborah) who experienced the ugliness of ostracism firsthand while living in Bountiful, UT. At the time her family moved to Bountiful, she was the mother of two beautiful girls aged 16 and 13. They transferred from LA to Bountiful in 2003 and eagerly looked forward to the excitement of moving into a lovely new home.

As the moving van started to unload, Deborah was approached by several new neighbors and the first question they asked was "are you members"? Unknown to Deborah, this was the beginning of a two year nightmare of exclusion and intolerance at the hands of her supposedly Christlike LDS neighbors. Her children were excluded from social activities, camps, neighborhood gatherings and treated with disdain at school. Her oldest daughter never dated because the boys were told they could not date "non-members". Deborah and her family made every effort to be social and outgoing to the point of inviting their neighbors to dinners, parties, etc. The typical response was a polite "no thanks".

After two years, Deborah and her family left Bountiful and moved to the east coast. She is now a wonderful friend. Many times we have discussed the contradiction between LDS doctrines and behavior. She is not bitter, just disappointed by how her children were isolated and ostracized. I have told her over and over that her Bountiful neighbors are not a fair representation of the Church. Unfortunately her only experience was negative. Intolerance has a home in Bountiful.

I'm sure this type of ostracism occurs, but I'm doubtful that it is as offensive as the stories make it appear.

If I had been told I could not socialize with non-members, I almost never would've socialized at all.

I believe President Hinckley came out sharply against this type of behavior a decade or more ago.

Tell her that Utah Mormons are not representative of true Mormonism.

It's an unfortunately truth. In Utah, they unrighteously mix culture and religion.

Along the same lines, when I worked at a fast food rest. in high school, I had a coworker whose family moved to Sandy, Utah. He told me that his sister (all nonmembers) had told him that there was one black guy in the entire high school, and that members of the high school had made a pact to drive him out before graduation.

I have no idea if this is true or not. But it wasn't impressing my coworker.

"By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples."

Is there a more bitter irony in the world than this? What are Christians in general, and Mormons in particular, truly known for? What characteristics define us and set us apart more than any other?

By and large, not the one that ought to.

You are correct - President Hinckley has thankfully been very outspoken and direct on this topic. Unfortunately in predominantly LDS neighborhoods like Bountiful, this doctrine is not uniformly practiced. Interesting how being in the majority fosters an attitude of superiority and, dare I say, "unrighteous dominion"?

Regarding the story, I wonder if the believers realize they have furthered the family's conviction that religion is the root of all evil.

I don't know if my hometown is messed up or what, but I grew up in Utah and never saw anything like this. My high school had I think 4 black kids, and they were awesome. Had tons of friends, were involved in choir and sports and other clubs. I'm not even sure if three of them were members (because frankly it didn't matter), but one I played a lot of ball a lot was for sure not LDS. He was always significantly better than I was on the court, and was gracious about it. I never invited him to parties or anything, but that was because he was about 3 social stratas above where I was. :)

Just thought I'd share an anecdote to show that the entire state of Utah does not consist of racist, bigoted individuals.

Maybe 99% is, but my little corner is not. :)

It is, as AA said, a bitter irony.

Religion IS culture. Those who criticize predominant Mormon culture are at the door of apostasy. Religion absent culture is like war absent death.

Help me SU - pointing out the foibles of a small group of members = criticizing the culture? I would submit Mormonism has a very unique culture; however, it is not homogenous and certainly not immune from deviations from prescribed norms.

And certainly not where the culture incorrectly applies religious teachings. Am I at the doorstep of apostasy when I refuse to discriminate against those of other religions or races, even though my Mormon neighbors do?

I did add the adjective "predominant".

There is a predominant culture that applies to any individual. Waters, growing up smugly as a non-Utah Mormon, may have a different experience than some of us tormented by Utah Mormon culture. But religion, ultimately, is culture.

For ease of reference, the dictionary definition of "culture" that I am employing here is:

5 a : the integrated pattern of human knowledge, belief, and behavior that depends upon the capacity for learning and transmitting knowledge to succeeding generations b : the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racial, religious, or social group; also : the characteristic features of everyday existence (as diversions or a way of life) shared by people in a place or time <popular culture> <southern culture> c : the set of shared attitudes, values, goals, and practices that characterizes an institution or organization <a corporate culture focused on the bottom line> d : the set of values, conventions, or social practices associated with a particular field, activity, or societal characteristic <studying the effect of computers on print culture> <changing the culture of materialism will take time -- Peggy O'Mara>

You throw this phrase around quite a bit, but it's so hyperbolic, why do you use it?

You're a warrior in the courtroom, having served in Equador, yet some green jello tortures you?

I can see how it might be unappealing to your palate, but torture?

Culture "tortures"? Do you want to aid in your argument or completely divest your argument of any credibility?

I said tormented. I stand by that.

Gimme a break.

Torment, torture.

Being thrown into the depths of the sea only to be dragged out shortly before you die is torment. Being heckled every day of your grammar school years because you don't fit in, that's being tormented.

Being beaten, spit upon, knifed and going without food that's torment. Being denied sexual favors for tens of years, that's torment.

What is tormentable in a culture that doesn't kill you? Your sense of torment seems might puny in terms of real world life.

I only lived 4 years in Utah, but I found Utahns to be probably the least racist people of anywhere I've ever lived. Granted, I only lived in Provo but that was my experience. And in the interest of disclosure I've lived in Oregon, California and Mass. in my adult life.

Frankly, even I agree with SeattleUte on this one. Mormon culture can be pointless and irrelevant at best, obnoxious and demeaning at worst. This is made all the more worse by the fact that it is supposed to elevate a man's spirit to celestial heights. Even faithful, active Mormons who think differently than other faithful, active Mormons often find themselves at the receiving end of significant amounts of hatred and bile-- exempli gratia, I give you this board. I also submit that any person who has left the church suffers tremendously as a result of treatment from the members.

Unlike SU, however, I see a sharp distinction between Mormon culture and the LDS religion.

Perhaps I'm insensitive enough to others' feelings to ignore the "torment". That term seems highly emotive, reserved for a few moments of extreme agony where you wish death could be heaped upon you.

Torment may be a little strong. On the other hand, I don't doubt that Mormon culture has been an impetus for the suicide of not a few.

I call BS on that one.

The stories people tell sometimes of Utah culture are amazing sometimes. Amazingly absurd.

Why do you have to ruin a good story showing how backwards, racist and intolerant Utah Mormon's are? Whoe cares if it's completely absurd and likely untrue? It's just another way to demonstrate that Utah Mormon's are monsters who can never know the gospel like out of state Mormon's.

Good point.

Let me put it this way, there are so many black kids adopted into Utah families these days that the idea of a high school in Sandy with only one black student is just laughable. Let alone the non-adopted crowd.

I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one. Utah Mormonism is the true Mormonism. It is true that out of state Mormons are better than Utah Mormons, but that's because their Mormonness (I know that's not really a word) is diluted by interaction with normal society. I have lived in and out of Utah and I enjoyed the church much more outside of Utah. It's a bad thing to have too many Mormons in one place. They get weird. Don't believe me? Check out the MTC.

Agree. I graduated from a high school in Sandy 25 years ago and there were three black kids in my class alone.

The other two were younger.

:D

Man, you are old! :)

My kids tell me that all the time, especially when we're playing hoops in the driveway. They don't believe me when I tell them that I'm just conserving energy.

No, the story is true. I grew up in Sandy, graduated 15 or so years ago and we really did only have one black kid in our high school. I remember a bunch of us concerned priets and laurels getting together to watch Saturday's Warrior and eat Jello Pudding Pops. Hopped up on sugar and caffeine we swore on a stack of MODOC's that no seed of Cain would sully the commencement exercises of our fair Hillcrest High. Not on our watch.

Pretty inflammatory of Waters to repeat such a dubious story. Not very responsible for our fearless leader to do.

Ha! Hillcrest is in Midvale, not Sandy.

Nice try. ;)

I know you're one of those snooty Alta Hawks, so I wouldn't expect you to know this, but although Hillcrest is in Midvale, nearly half the students came from Sandy. :)

I knew that. I just never thought of them as people from Sandy. Nothing west of 1700 East is the real Sandy. ;)

My street was 1690 East. I always thought the dividing line was 13th East. Damn.

Anyway, I hate you stuck up Alta people. Almost as much as those rich drug addicts at Brighton. :)

1690 East? Because you're a baseball fan, that's close enough. ;)

Agreed about those Cheatin' Bengals. I hate 'em.