Interesting debate with a JW on a arizona board.... - cougarguard.com — unofficial BYU Cougars / LDS sports, football, basketball forum and message board

jwf · 03-30-2006, 02:24 AM

Check it out if you find it amusing what some anti's try to pull out of the hat:

http://mb22.scout.com/farizonawildcatsfrm6

Robin might like the information....

Jeff Lebowski · 03-30-2006, 02:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwf

Check it out if you find it amusing what some anti's try to pull out of the hat:

http://mb22.scout.com/farizonawildcatsfrm6

Robin might like the information....

Yawn..... Same old stuff you see on thousands of other internet forums.

jwf · 03-30-2006, 03:13 AM

You seem to very studious and can articulate your opinion pretty well......

Jeff Lebowski · 03-30-2006, 04:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwf

You seem to very studious and can articulate your opinion pretty well......

Well, thanks for the compliment but I will have to pass. Arguing/debating with folks like that is an exercise in futility.

I saw a similar thread on a forum a couple of years ago and someone chimed in and swore that she "knew for a fact" that human sacrifices are routinely performed in Mormon temples. No, I am not making this up. I didn't know whether to laugh or cry.

SeattleUte · 03-30-2006, 05:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwf

Check it out if you find it amusing what some anti's try to pull out of the hat:

http://mb22.scout.com/farizonawildcatsfrm6

Robin might like the information....

JW? You mean Jehovah's Witness? I see he calls Mormonism a cult. Pot calling the kettle black.

jwf · 03-30-2006, 05:27 AM

The guy just copys and pastes info from his JW leader...lol.

Robin · 03-30-2006, 06:42 AM

Watching people of faith argue about who has the true religion is kind of like watching 'Bum fights.'

Jeff Lebowski · 03-30-2006, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robin

Watching people of faith argue about who has the true religion is kind of like watching 'Bum fights.'

Well, I realize that you are probably attempting to mock us again, but I actually agree with you. Heated debates (typically with cussing and name-calling) about issues of faith are absurd. And the worst possible place to have such a debate is on an open internet forum with anonymous posters.

jay santos · 03-30-2006, 08:00 PM

I enjoyed the thread and made the following post under provobyuguy.

First of all, let me say I'm excited to be playing you guys next year. I'd like to see BYU play a tougher schedule with a lot of Pac 10 teams, even if we don't win them all. Our offense should be about as good as you guys see all year, but our D will be lacking.

I usually stick to BYU boards, but a link was posted there on this thread, and I've read with interest, and thought I'd post my thoughts.

1. On Joseph Smith and the book of Abraham. Frankly, the story that JS found the ancient script of the great patriarch stuck in with some mummies that were basically touring America like a circus act has always been a little troubling for me. I admit I'm not current on all the latest findings of the whereabouts or translations of this ancient script. I'm a little on the liberal side of Mormon thought, and so it doesn't matter so much to me. Mormons do not believe in the infallibility of prophets. That's important enough to say again. Mormons do not believe in the infallibility of Joseph Smith, Gordon B. Hinckley, or any other prophet. If you prove to me that Joseph Smith did something wrong or wacky or sinful, it doesn't do much to sway me from my faith. Likewise if you tell me Lot had sex with his daughters--same deal. So my answer is to say, it slightly affects my faith if I were to know JS was wrong on the origin of the Book of Abraham, but not too much. The same goes for any one thing Joseph Smith did. I personally believe JS got off on the wrong track with polygamy, which was later corrected. There are conservative believers of the Mormon faith who would disagree with me--whether it be on the Book of Abraham or polygamy. There is a very conservative research foundation called FARMS, which I'm sure has published several papers and other apologetic works on the Book of Abraham and anything else quirky you can find in Joseph Smith's past. You can find it on the web pretty easy. These are extremely educated men doing research that would blow away this dumb little thread. Let the academics go at it, and us simple minded folk like JW, myself, and others here will just have to sift through it all, exercising their own faith.

2. Do we believe in the same Jesus? This is something I feel strongly about. When you accuse us Mormons of not believing in the same Jesus, you either a) distort our doctrine on grace and works or b) get lost in semantics concerning the relationship between God the Father and Jesus, the Son of God, or c) go 20,000 years into the past or future to poke holes at our doctrine of Godhood and eternity.

a. Mormons absolutely believe that salvation is a free gift of Jesus Christ. That only through the grace of Jesus Christ can we be saved. We get lost in semantics with Mormons accusing Christians of "easy grace" and Christians accusing Mormons of earning our own way to heaven. Neither does the other side justice. If you ask a Mormon or a Christian what a true believer of Jesus Christ looks like, they'd both describe the same thing. Someone that has accepted Christ, exercised their faith in Jesus Christ, repented of their sins, and now knowing their standing with Christ is sure, they serve him and their fellow men with good works. In the early days of the church, we sought to distinguish ourselves with born again Christians, and many of the statements of early LDS leaders are fairly condemning when it comes to this topic. But look at the LDS canon and what is taught today--the Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price, and words of the living prophet Gordon B. Hinckley, and you will see that as a church we have really come around to discovering the true doctrine of grace. This takes time as the older, stubborn generation dies off, but it is happening. I strongly believe that there is very little difference between Christians and Mormons when it comes to grace and works. For further study, please see a great book that was co-written by an Evangelical scholar Craig Blomberg and a Mormon BYU Religion professor and scholar Stephen Robinson, titled How Wide the Divide? Their conclusion after some banter back and forth is that Christians and Mormons are not so far off and the difference is largely in semantics.

b. Anything salient you believe about Jesus, I'm quite sure we also believe about Jesus. He created the heavens and the earth. He is the Jehovah of the Old Testament. He is the Messiah. He is the condescension of God. He is the literal Son of God, with a mortal mother Mary and a Heavenly Father. He took upon our sins, atoned for mankind, overcame death through the resurrection. He is the way, the truth, and the life. Through him we will all be resurrected and live again. He is our judge and we will all be judged by him and placed in heaven or hell. He will come again at the rapture, when the wicked will be destroyed, and the righteous will live on Earth with Christ as the King. We pray to the Father through the name of the Son because he is the intercessor. Please see the book How Wide the Divide for how we get into semantics and esoteric issues to find differences in our beliefs about the Savior.

c. All this muck about godhood and what God was in the past and what he will be in the future is all just theory. It doesn't affect the way Mormons act or believe on a day by day week by week basis. Mormons have living prophets that have received a lot of revelation that has filled in the gaps that Christianity is silent on. Christianity doesn't tell you what was going on 100,000 years ago and not too loud on what will happen in 100,000 years. Mormons have an opinion on it. It's actually a changing opinion--which is perfectly fine. Look at what is taught in the church today if you want an answer on something, not on what somebody said 200 years ago that didn't make the canon. Again, we don't believe in infallibility of prophets. If you limit the analysis to +-10,000 years, I can pretty much guarantee you that what we believe is way closer than you (or most Mormons) would like to admit.

jwf · 04-01-2006, 04:09 AM

Maybe the guy will go copy and paste some more information to prove you wrong from some JW site.

03-30-2006, 02:24 AM	#1
jwf Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 18	Interesting debate with a JW on a arizona board.... Check it out if you find it amusing what some anti's try to pull out of the hat: http://mb22.scout.com/farizonawildcatsfrm6 Robin might like the information.... __________________ Kings suck this year...as do the jazz!!!

03-30-2006, 03:13 AM	#3
jwf Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 18	Care to debate him a little homeboy? You seem to very studious and can articulate your opinion pretty well...... __________________ Kings suck this year...as do the jazz!!!

03-30-2006, 05:27 AM	#6
jwf Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 18	yeah catblue, kind of amusing eh. The guy just copys and pastes info from his JW leader...lol. __________________ Kings suck this year...as do the jazz!!!

04-01-2006, 04:09 AM	#10
jwf Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 18	excellent post jay Maybe the guy will go copy and paste some more information to prove you wrong from some JW site. __________________ Kings suck this year...as do the jazz!!!

03-30-2006, 06:42 AM	#7
Robin Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 961	Watching people of faith argue about who has the true religion is kind of like watching 'Bum fights.'

03-30-2006, 08:00 PM	#9
jay santos Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 6,177	I enjoyed the thread and made the following post under provobyuguy. First of all, let me say I'm excited to be playing you guys next year. I'd like to see BYU play a tougher schedule with a lot of Pac 10 teams, even if we don't win them all. Our offense should be about as good as you guys see all year, but our D will be lacking. I usually stick to BYU boards, but a link was posted there on this thread, and I've read with interest, and thought I'd post my thoughts. 1. On Joseph Smith and the book of Abraham. Frankly, the story that JS found the ancient script of the great patriarch stuck in with some mummies that were basically touring America like a circus act has always been a little troubling for me. I admit I'm not current on all the latest findings of the whereabouts or translations of this ancient script. I'm a little on the liberal side of Mormon thought, and so it doesn't matter so much to me. Mormons do not believe in the infallibility of prophets. That's important enough to say again. Mormons do not believe in the infallibility of Joseph Smith, Gordon B. Hinckley, or any other prophet. If you prove to me that Joseph Smith did something wrong or wacky or sinful, it doesn't do much to sway me from my faith. Likewise if you tell me Lot had sex with his daughters--same deal. So my answer is to say, it slightly affects my faith if I were to know JS was wrong on the origin of the Book of Abraham, but not too much. The same goes for any one thing Joseph Smith did. I personally believe JS got off on the wrong track with polygamy, which was later corrected. There are conservative believers of the Mormon faith who would disagree with me--whether it be on the Book of Abraham or polygamy. There is a very conservative research foundation called FARMS, which I'm sure has published several papers and other apologetic works on the Book of Abraham and anything else quirky you can find in Joseph Smith's past. You can find it on the web pretty easy. These are extremely educated men doing research that would blow away this dumb little thread. Let the academics go at it, and us simple minded folk like JW, myself, and others here will just have to sift through it all, exercising their own faith. 2. Do we believe in the same Jesus? This is something I feel strongly about. When you accuse us Mormons of not believing in the same Jesus, you either a) distort our doctrine on grace and works or b) get lost in semantics concerning the relationship between God the Father and Jesus, the Son of God, or c) go 20,000 years into the past or future to poke holes at our doctrine of Godhood and eternity. a. Mormons absolutely believe that salvation is a free gift of Jesus Christ. That only through the grace of Jesus Christ can we be saved. We get lost in semantics with Mormons accusing Christians of "easy grace" and Christians accusing Mormons of earning our own way to heaven. Neither does the other side justice. If you ask a Mormon or a Christian what a true believer of Jesus Christ looks like, they'd both describe the same thing. Someone that has accepted Christ, exercised their faith in Jesus Christ, repented of their sins, and now knowing their standing with Christ is sure, they serve him and their fellow men with good works. In the early days of the church, we sought to distinguish ourselves with born again Christians, and many of the statements of early LDS leaders are fairly condemning when it comes to this topic. But look at the LDS canon and what is taught today--the Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price, and words of the living prophet Gordon B. Hinckley, and you will see that as a church we have really come around to discovering the true doctrine of grace. This takes time as the older, stubborn generation dies off, but it is happening. I strongly believe that there is very little difference between Christians and Mormons when it comes to grace and works. For further study, please see a great book that was co-written by an Evangelical scholar Craig Blomberg and a Mormon BYU Religion professor and scholar Stephen Robinson, titled How Wide the Divide? Their conclusion after some banter back and forth is that Christians and Mormons are not so far off and the difference is largely in semantics. b. Anything salient you believe about Jesus, I'm quite sure we also believe about Jesus. He created the heavens and the earth. He is the Jehovah of the Old Testament. He is the Messiah. He is the condescension of God. He is the literal Son of God, with a mortal mother Mary and a Heavenly Father. He took upon our sins, atoned for mankind, overcame death through the resurrection. He is the way, the truth, and the life. Through him we will all be resurrected and live again. He is our judge and we will all be judged by him and placed in heaven or hell. He will come again at the rapture, when the wicked will be destroyed, and the righteous will live on Earth with Christ as the King. We pray to the Father through the name of the Son because he is the intercessor. Please see the book How Wide the Divide for how we get into semantics and esoteric issues to find differences in our beliefs about the Savior. c. All this muck about godhood and what God was in the past and what he will be in the future is all just theory. It doesn't affect the way Mormons act or believe on a day by day week by week basis. Mormons have living prophets that have received a lot of revelation that has filled in the gaps that Christianity is silent on. Christianity doesn't tell you what was going on 100,000 years ago and not too loud on what will happen in 100,000 years. Mormons have an opinion on it. It's actually a changing opinion--which is perfectly fine. Look at what is taught in the church today if you want an answer on something, not on what somebody said 200 years ago that didn't make the canon. Again, we don't believe in infallibility of prophets. If you limit the analysis to +-10,000 years, I can pretty much guarantee you that what we believe is way closer than you (or most Mormons) would like to admit.