LDS essay on blacks and the priesthood - cougarguard.com — unofficial BYU Cougars / LDS sports, football, basketball forum and message board

MikeWaters · 12-12-2013, 05:12 PM

This probably deserves its own thread.

https://www.lds.org/topics/race-and-the-priesthood

The essay presents some historical background. Most specifically that the views of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young have very apparent and obvious and documented differences.

It says that Brigham justified the doctrine/policy/practice using racist ideology.

And then finally that the church now condemns and discards all racist ideology past and present.

In essence, the essay does not connect the dots, but allows the readers to connect the dots: that the church disavows Brigham Young's explanations for the policy.

You are left with a number of choices:
1. That the policy came from God but Young lied about the reasons.
2. That the policy came from God but Young offered his best guesses about why.
3. That the policy came from Brigham Young and not from God. And that Brigham was wrong.

A chink in the armor of the idea that LDS prophets are infallible and can never lead anyone astray on any topic.

As a non-fundamentalist, this doesn't bother me. But certainly there are some people for whom this is very disturbing.

ChinoCoug · 12-12-2013, 09:45 PM

Two groups of people got the most pissed by the statement:

1. Fundies, who are pissed the Brethren disavowed 100s of years of Church teachings for some cheap PR.
2. Anti-Mormons, who are pissed the Church disavowed 100s of years of Church teachings for some cheap PR.

I just learned this on Facebook.

El Jefe is progressive relative to the board he runs. Rantings from both groups are absent. He changed his moniker to Nelson Mandela. Good for him.

MikeWaters · 12-12-2013, 09:51 PM

It's kind of a ho-hum topic on CG, since we have already had our knock-down fights over this years ago.

I started talking about this on CB before CG started, IIRC. My recollection was that these ideas were not widely known among average Mormons 12 years ago. They are much more widely known now, prior to the essay.

But there are some that are just not being introduced to these ideas, and they find them disturbing. They are having to recalibrate what it means to be a prophet and having to digest the idea that we are perhaps more fallible than we would like.

Archaea · 12-12-2013, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

It's kind of a ho-hum topic on CG, since we have already had our knock-down fights over this years ago.

I started talking about this on CB before CG started, IIRC. My recollection was that these ideas were not widely known among average Mormons 12 years ago. They are much more widely known now, prior to the essay.

But there are some that are just not being introduced to these ideas, and they find them disturbing. They are having to recalibrate what it means to be a prophet and having to digest the idea that we are perhaps more fallible than we would like.

It does really require some soul-searching though. If Brigham Young, who was not just any prophet, could be that wrong, how does one distinguish right from wrong on what they say? This is not some minor administrative oversight, but one of broad theological mistake.

MikeWaters · 12-12-2013, 10:27 PM

Well, one thing that certainly seems to be the case but is rarely talked about is the drop-off from Joseph Smith to everyone else.

All you have to do is look at our standard works to figure that out. How much of it comes from prophets after Joseph? A smidgen.

It's like a fire hydrant that turned into a leaky faucet. That's not a criticism. That's an observation. We received what we needed for our time. We are taught that when we are ready we will receive more.

My point is that Brigham Young was very different, had a different role, and was not nearly the revelator. Young's role was HUGE. He saved the church. I don't know that Joseph would have been capable of doing what Brigham did. I can relate to that. I am more of your scatter-brained idea guy--I am not the guy who organizes and implements and administers.

All you have to do is look at the history of CG to figure that out. I was burned at the stake.

MikeWaters · 12-13-2013, 06:49 PM

An essay posted on their website is not enough. This needs to be officially stated to have the proper impact. Like a FP message read over every pulpit, or in general conference.

Archaea · 12-13-2013, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

An essay posted on their website is not enough. This needs to be officially stated to have the proper impact. Like a FP message read over every pulpit, or in general conference.

Unless Uchtdorf does it, it is unlikely to ever happen. The Church, as an organization, rarely admits a mistake.

12-12-2013, 05:12 PM	#1
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	LDS essay on blacks and the priesthood This probably deserves its own thread. https://www.lds.org/topics/race-and-the-priesthood The essay presents some historical background. Most specifically that the views of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young have very apparent and obvious and documented differences. It says that Brigham justified the doctrine/policy/practice using racist ideology. And then finally that the church now condemns and discards all racist ideology past and present. In essence, the essay does not connect the dots, but allows the readers to connect the dots: that the church disavows Brigham Young's explanations for the policy. You are left with a number of choices: 1. That the policy came from God but Young lied about the reasons. 2. That the policy came from God but Young offered his best guesses about why. 3. That the policy came from Brigham Young and not from God. And that Brigham was wrong. A chink in the armor of the idea that LDS prophets are infallible and can never lead anyone astray on any topic. As a non-fundamentalist, this doesn't bother me. But certainly there are some people for whom this is very disturbing.

12-12-2013, 09:45 PM	#2
ChinoCoug Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: NOVA Posts: 3,005	Two groups of people got the most pissed by the statement: 1. Fundies, who are pissed the Brethren disavowed 100s of years of Church teachings for some cheap PR. 2. Anti-Mormons, who are pissed the Church disavowed 100s of years of Church teachings for some cheap PR. I just learned this on Facebook. El Jefe is progressive relative to the board he runs. Rantings from both groups are absent. He changed his moniker to Nelson Mandela. Good for him. __________________ 太初有道 Last edited by ChinoCoug; 12-12-2013 at 09:47 PM.

12-12-2013, 09:51 PM	#3
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	It's kind of a ho-hum topic on CG, since we have already had our knock-down fights over this years ago. I started talking about this on CB before CG started, IIRC. My recollection was that these ideas were not widely known among average Mormons 12 years ago. They are much more widely known now, prior to the essay. But there are some that are just not being introduced to these ideas, and they find them disturbing. They are having to recalibrate what it means to be a prophet and having to digest the idea that we are perhaps more fallible than we would like.

12-12-2013, 10:27 PM	#5
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	Well, one thing that certainly seems to be the case but is rarely talked about is the drop-off from Joseph Smith to everyone else. All you have to do is look at our standard works to figure that out. How much of it comes from prophets after Joseph? A smidgen. It's like a fire hydrant that turned into a leaky faucet. That's not a criticism. That's an observation. We received what we needed for our time. We are taught that when we are ready we will receive more. My point is that Brigham Young was very different, had a different role, and was not nearly the revelator. Young's role was HUGE. He saved the church. I don't know that Joseph would have been capable of doing what Brigham did. I can relate to that. I am more of your scatter-brained idea guy--I am not the guy who organizes and implements and administers. All you have to do is look at the history of CG to figure that out. I was burned at the stake.

12-13-2013, 06:49 PM	#6
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	An essay posted on their website is not enough. This needs to be officially stated to have the proper impact. Like a FP message read over every pulpit, or in general conference.