I've not known any of this about Moroni (except the white and brilliant robes part

[SeattleUte]

and telling Joseph about his past). Did you?:

"Moroni similarly appears in a majestic form in a 'robe' that was 'exceedingly white and brilliant.'19 He also appears along Palmyra roads as a nice 'old man going to Cumorah' and elsewhere with 'white hair,' dressed in 'gray apparel,' wearing a 'military half cocked hat.' Moroni protects Joseph against evil 'spirits' who seek his treasure on the equinox. Moroni plows a field at the Whitmer farm and is seen about their sheds. Leman Copley, an early church member, said Smith told him and Joseph Knight Sr. that he saw and conversed with 'Moroni' as 'an old man' traveling to 'Charzee.' Joseph said Moroni claimed to have a monkey in a box and that for 'five coppers' he could see it.20 Moroni meets Joseph and tells him about his past."

http://www.signaturebooks.com/excerpts/insider's3.htm

[UtahDan]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

and telling Joseph about his past). Did you?:

"Moroni similarly appears in a majestic form in a 'robe' that was 'exceedingly white and brilliant.'19 He also appears along Palmyra roads as a nice 'old man going to Cumorah' and elsewhere with 'white hair,' dressed in 'gray apparel,' wearing a 'military half cocked hat.' Moroni protects Joseph against evil 'spirits' who seek his treasure on the equinox. Moroni plows a field at the Whitmer farm and is seen about their sheds. Leman Copley, an early church member, said Smith told him and Joseph Knight Sr. that he saw and conversed with 'Moroni' as 'an old man' traveling to 'Charzee.' Joseph said Moroni claimed to have a monkey in a box and that for 'five coppers' he could see it.20 Moroni meets Joseph and tells him about his past."

http://www.signaturebooks.com/excerpts/insider's3.htm

Moroni is Gandalf!!!

[ute4ever]

I haven't heard most of those stories before, but maybe that's because nearly all of the footnote sources go right back to the author quoting himself.

[pelagius]

SU, I think there is some evidence that Joseph viewed Moroni as both an angel and a treasure guardian or maybe more fairly as an angel that was a treasure guardian (at least thats how I remember the evidence). Early antagnistic sources also view Moroni as a treasure guardian (see for example, The Book of Pukei). I am not sure why this would be surprising given that we know that the treasure hunting culture was an important part of Joseph Smith's youth. This seems like a natural implication of that influence and, of course, in some sense he is guarding treasure (gold plates).

I should add that I don't believe there is any first hand account by Joseph Smith referring to Moroni as anything other than an angel. I think a lot of the treasure guardian stuff comes from people like Emma's cousins.

[MikeWaters]

SU, now that you have discovered this, does that mean you are coming back?

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

SU, now that you have discovered this, does that mean you are coming back?

I do like the part about Joseph telling Josephy Knight about meeting up with the old man travelling to Charzee (?) who turned out to be Moroni. That's very Cormac McCarthy. I don't know about the monkey in the box and you get a peek for five coppers part. That makes me a little squemish.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by pelagius

SU, I think there is some evidence that Joseph viewed Moroni as both an angel and a treasure guardian or maybe more fairly as an angel that was a treasure guardian (at least thats how I remember the evidence). Early antagnistic sources also view Moroni as a treasure guardian (see for example, The Book of Pukei). I not sure why this would be surprising given that we know that the treasure hunting culture was an important part of Joseph Smith youth. This seems like a natural implication of that influence and, of course, in some sense he is guarding treasure (gold plates).

I should add that I don't believe there is any first hand account by Joseph Smith referring to Moroni as anything other than an angel.

Is there not an account of Joseph being rebuked by Moroni when he first tried to get the plates, because he had been possessed of thoughts to use their intrinsic value (gold) for other than spiritual purposes?

[creekster]

Originally Posted by Tex

Is there not an account of Joseph being rebuked by Moroni when he first tried to get the plates, because he had been possessed of thoughts to use their intrinsic value (gold) for other than spiritual purposes?

Yes. It is described in Rough Stone Rollling.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by UtahDan

Moroni is Gandalf!!!

I know you think you're joking but this is probably not as far from the truth as you think. Grant Palmer concludes that Mormonism owes a debt to European folk history, and Tolkein did too. Nordic myths and legends were grist for both the Book of Mormon and The Lord of the Rings, understandably so given earliest Mormons' ethnicity. We've seen that the "mark of Cain" dogma appears in Beowulf; Grendel was a descendent of Cain, in fact. However, I think Palmer's view is that someone must have been directly adapting plot lines from E.T.A Hoffman's allegory "The Golden Pot," which, like Lord of the Rings, was adapted from or influenced by Nordic as well as Greek myths. (Nordic myths were to a large extent adaptations of Greek and Roman myths. All these strands lead back to the same source, don't they?)

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by pelagius

SU, I think there is some evidence that Joseph viewed Moroni as both an angel and a treasure guardian or maybe more fairly as an angel that was a treasure guardian (at least thats how I remember the evidence). Early antagnistic sources also view Moroni as a treasure guardian (see for example, The Book of Pukei). I am not sure why this would be surprising given that we know that the treasure hunting culture was an important part of Joseph Smith's youth. This seems like a natural implication of that influence and, of course, in some sense he is guarding treasure (gold plates).

I should add that I don't believe there is any first hand account by Joseph Smith referring to Moroni as anything other than an angel. I think a lot of the treasure guardian stuff comes from people like Emma's cousins.

I'm talking more about the details of the accounts. Moroni as an old man appearing here and there on roads and plowing fields, showing a monkey in a box for five coppers, etc. I didn't know any of that stuff. I learn new stuff about Mormonism all the time. I didn't even know the Book of Abraham scrolls had been found way back when I was an active Mormon. I was pretty uninformed, I guess.