Being damned

[Tex]

The topic of damnation came up tangentially in a class today. The instructor gave a customary LDS illustration, drawing a comparison to the word "dam", the idea being that your spiritual progression is blocked or impeded, as a physical dam does to water flow.

Now, I understand the point being made, and I don't necessarily disagree with it on a superficial level. However, I wonder if this metaphor really serves our purpose. Perhaps its my inner mullah, but my conception of damnation goes beyond the agony one might experience from having his progression "dammed." Does this characterization overly simply or overly soften what being damned really means?

I did a little searching on various word combinations to see if I could discover its origin and use among the GA's, but very little came up.

[All-American]

Whence, then, the anguish?

I believe in a God that bestows upon his children the greatest amount of blessings and happiness as they can possibly receive. The only impediments to our receipt of those blessings is our own actions. We cut ourselves off.

So maybe the dam is bi-directional. We don't progress, and we don't receive what we might have had we lived accordingly.

But I don't believe that God would actively torment a disobedient child.

[Cali Coug]

Originally Posted by All-American

Whence, then, the anguish?

I believe in a God that bestows upon his children the greatest amount of blessings and happiness as they can possibly receive. The only impediments to our receipt of those blessings is our own actions. We cut ourselves off.

So maybe the dam is bi-directional. We don't progress, and we don't receive what we might have had we lived accordingly.

But I don't believe that God would actively torment a disobedient child.

Kind of how I feel. I think Eternal Punishment is God's punishment, and Damnation is separation from God (somewhat like a "dam," I guess, in that you are separated by something and not receiving the fullness of his spirit and blessings. I do appreciate the analogy on the level that a dam can always be removed, and I think damnation can also.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by All-American

Whence, then, the anguish?

I believe in a God that bestows upon his children the greatest amount of blessings and happiness as they can possibly receive. The only impediments to our receipt of those blessings is our own actions. We cut ourselves off.

So maybe the dam is bi-directional. We don't progress, and we don't receive what we might have had we lived accordingly.

But I don't believe that God would actively torment a disobedient child.

I'm thinking specifically of scriptures like D&C 19, which uses some fairly stark language, including:

15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.
...
17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;
18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—
...
20 Wherefore, I command you again to repent, lest I humble you with my almighty power; and that you confess your sins, lest you suffer these punishments of which I have spoken, of which in the smallest, yea, even in the least degree you have dtasted at the time I withdrew my Spirit.

Now that sounds to me like much more than anguish over missed opportunities or stagnated progression. And I don't know if it counts as "active tormenting" but it certainly sounds like God is the one inflicting the pain.

[MikeWaters]

God is Cheney-like in his desire to torture his children.

This is about Tex's desire to justify torture.

[BlueK]

Originally Posted by Tex

I'm thinking specifically of scriptures like D&C 19, which uses some fairly stark language, including:



Now that sounds to me like much more than anguish over missed opportunities or stagnated progression. And I don't know if it counts as "active tormenting" but it certainly sounds like God is the one inflicting the pain.

D&C 19 was a revelation for Martin Harris. The end of the last verse you quote refers to a time the Lord withdrew his spirit, which I believe refers to the loss of the 116 pages. Maybe Martin just needed the stronger medicine, tough love, or however you want to put it at that moment. We know someone who commits grievous sins and doesn't repent is going to feel pain while in the spirit world. That doesn't mean God is inflicting the punishment or wants to. We can and do often punish ourselves worse than God would, IMO. Maybe that's what the Lord wanted to save him from. There is plenty the rest of us can take from this revelation to Martin Harris, but I think we're reading too much into it if we interpret damnation to have the same meaning it does to the evangelicals. It's just not a consistent interpretation in light of other knowledge we have as LDS.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by BlueK

D&C 19 was a revelation for Martin Harris. The end of the last verse you quote refers to a time the Lord withdrew his spirit, which I believe refers to the loss of the 116 pages. Maybe Martin just needed the stronger medicine, tough love, or however you want to put it at that moment. We know someone who commits grievous sins and doesn't repent is going to feel pain while in the spirit world. That doesn't mean God is inflicting the punishment or wants to. We can and do often punish ourselves worse than God would, IMO. Maybe that's what the Lord wanted to save him from.

Sorry but no, I think it's much more than that. I don't take the words "suffer even as I" very lightly. Maybe being cut off from God forever causes a level of self-inflicted agony that I simply cannot comprehend, but to match the suffering of the Savior? That just seems inadequate to me, and I'm not sure it's scriptural either. (Feel free to cite some to me, if you disagree).

The question of whether God is actually the one inflicting the pain is not as important to me, for the purposes of this discussion. One could say God is simply permitting us to suffer the natural consequences of our sins (according to justice), and it would be the same thing.

Originally Posted by BlueK

There is plenty the rest of us can take from this revelation to Martin Harris, but I think we're reading too much into it if we interpret damnation to have the same meaning it does to the evangelicals. It's just not a consistent interpretation in light of other knowledge we have as LDS.

Make the case, then. Cite to me some other scripture or statements that throw more light on this. (I mean this earnestly, not combatively.)

[All-American]

Originally Posted by Tex

I'm thinking specifically of scriptures like D&C 19, which uses some fairly stark language, including:



Now that sounds to me like much more than anguish over missed opportunities or stagnated progression. And I don't know if it counts as "active tormenting" but it certainly sounds like God is the one inflicting the pain.

I don't believe God would deliberately inflict pain upon one of his children, absent an purpose which is ultimately instructive and edifying. I believe any suffering his children may be forced to endure in their final state, however horrendous, is a natural consequence of their own decisions.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by All-American

I don't believe God would deliberately inflict pain upon one of his children, absent an purpose which is ultimately instructive and edifying. I believe any suffering his children may be forced to endure in their final state, however horrendous, is a natural consequence of their own decisions.

*shrug* Okay. But as I told BlueK, that's really tangential to my question.

[All-American]

Originally Posted by Tex

*shrug* Okay. But as I told BlueK, that's really tangential to my question.

Your original question being whether traditional interpretation of the circumstances of the hereafter soften the scriptural teachings?

I don't see the traditional interpretation as being any softer. Spending an eternity knowing what might have been had I done what I knew I should have done is a torment every bit as exquisite as any lake of fire and brimstone.