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View Poll Results: Would this have done you in? | |||
Yes |
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2 | 9.09% |
No |
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9 | 40.91% |
I was old enough to understand back then and I did |
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0 | 0% |
I was old enough to understand back then and I didn't |
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9 | 40.91% |
I was already an apostate |
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2 | 9.09% |
Voters: 22. You may not vote on this poll |
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#1 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Between Iraq and a hard place
Posts: 7,569
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Had this happened in 2008 instead of 1980-something-or-other?
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#2 |
Demiurge
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 36,365
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Stage IVs are the least likely to apostasize over something like this, if the issue is "how could an Apostle be duped by a future murderer?"
On the other hand, if the angle is "why is the church hidling and covering up and limiting access to historical materials?" that bothers Mormon liberals the most. Hard to say. Now in my old age, an apostle being lied to and falling for the lie is just an acknowledgement of human nature and the failure of discernment even among the very best. The church's hiding of historical materials bothers me, but it's been bothering me for a long time now, so more hiding is hardly a revelation. |
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#3 |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Vegas Baby, Vegas.
Posts: 329
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The apologetics that came out trying to smooth over the events described in the salamander letter were amusing to say the least.
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#4 |
Senior Member
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Yeah, I'll drink to that.
__________________
εν αρχη ην ο λογος |
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#5 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Bluth Home
Posts: 3,877
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Since I am well past the point where I expect perfection from the church, its leaders or the gospel as it is articulated through the church and its leaders, I really don't see that as bothering me if it happened now. Coming out of high school and early in college my world view was still that the church was true based on undeniable logical and empirical evidence and that the words and actions of at least the 12 and first presidency were the unerring will of the Lord, who was revealing it to them (probably in person) on an ongoing basis.
A significant life experience damaged the foundations of that world view and prompted me at that point to re-examine what I had formerly assumed about everything, really for the first time. This was sort of my "white salamander" experience. I spent years with one foot in stage four with periodic retreats to stage three through rigorous compartmentalization. I think (hope) that in the last 4-5 years I have taken a new turn into what I see as being a stage five approach that allows me to have my belief system remain intact through faith and through completely discarding the expectation that I can build a foundation on reason and evidences (other than those which are completely internal). With my own choices, hopes and faith as the foundation, I have not set up a spiritual house of cards that collapses when one gets yanked from the bottom. It is not as clean and simple and pure as it was when I was teenager, but that's okay. A couple of things Fowler suggests that are true to me: (1) once the stage three scales fall off, there really is no getting re-inserted into the Matrix so to speak (2) these transitions take place over years (probably a 15 year or so journey for me) (3) the journey need not end in stage three or stage four. A sublime synthesis is possible.
__________________
The Bible tells us how to go to heaven, not how the heavens go. -Galileo Last edited by UtahDan; 09-27-2008 at 12:46 PM. |
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#6 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,589
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I don't think most people cared about the presence of the letter nearly as much as the Church's efforts to purchase and then conceal it. I'm not terribly excited about my tithing money being used this way.
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#7 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Memphis freakin' Tennessee!!!!!
Posts: 4,530
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Is the effort to conceal the letter revisionist history, or was it real?
__________________
Give 'em Hell, Cougars!!! Religion rises inevitably from our apprehension of our own death. To give meaning to meaninglessness is the endless quest of all religion. When death becomes the center of our consciousness, then religion authentically begins. Of all religions that I know, the one that most vehemently and persuasively defies and denies the reality of death is the original Mormonism of the Prophet, Seer and Revelator, Joseph Smith. |
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#8 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,589
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EDIT: I guess I shouldn't say "public" as the contents were public from the outset. But I think there were many who were concerned that the Church's motive in purchasing the document was to "bury" it; the contents then became widely known with the bombings and subsequent investigation. I have no idea if this is a fair accusation, but there are some smart people ( and active members of the church) who feel that there is at least some validity to it. If it's true, I don't really like it, and that's all I meant by the original post. Last edited by ERCougar; 09-27-2008 at 02:46 PM. |
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#9 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Memphis freakin' Tennessee!!!!!
Posts: 4,530
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I can certainly accept that The Church has not always been forthcoming, and has tried to keep certain aspects of its history from public view (certainly bothersome), but I don't know that this particular episode is part of that grand conspiracy. But I can understand why some might believe otherwise. Some people still think Danny Ainge bit Tree Rollins.
__________________
Give 'em Hell, Cougars!!! Religion rises inevitably from our apprehension of our own death. To give meaning to meaninglessness is the endless quest of all religion. When death becomes the center of our consciousness, then religion authentically begins. Of all religions that I know, the one that most vehemently and persuasively defies and denies the reality of death is the original Mormonism of the Prophet, Seer and Revelator, Joseph Smith. |
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#10 | |
Demiurge
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 36,365
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Juanita Brooks' MMM book contained at the end an account of how she had been prevented from seeing documents by apostles. Please folks, keep your eye on the ball. |
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