Civil War Prophecy

[All-American]

We may have discussed this already; maybe we haven't. The teacher of my Civil War history class mentioned Section 87 today in class, naturally leading once more to the conclusion that Joseph Smith was clearly a prophet (when at BYU . . .). I'd like to hear what everybody here thinks of this section, here reproduced in full:

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord concerning the wars that will shortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls;
2 And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place.
3 For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then war shall be poured out upon all nations.
4 And it shall come to pass, after many days, slaves shall rise up against their masters, who shall be marshaled and disciplined for war.
5 And it shall come to pass also that the remnants who are left of the land will marshal themselves, and shall become exceedingly angry, and shall vex the Gentiles with a sore vexation.
6 And thus, with the sword and by bloodshed the inhabitants of the earth shall mourn; and with famine, and plague, and earthquake, and the thunder of heaven, and the fierce and vivid lightning also, shall the inhabitants of the earth be made to feel the wrath, and indignation, and chastening hand of an Almighty God, until the consumption decreed hath made a full fend of all nations;
7 That the cry of the saints, and of the blood of the saints, shall cease to come up into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth, from the earth, to be avenged of their enemies.
8 Wherefore, stand ye in holy places, and be not moved, until the day of the Lord come; for behold, it cometh quickly, saith the Lord. Amen.

[MikeWaters]

I taught an investigator, he was the American ex-pat manager of the apt. complex we lived at in Guam. He became very argumentative during the discussion and said if JS is a prophet where are his prophecies? So I turned to this. He was unimpressed.

A week later we were meeting with a different investigator in our apt. Through the front door we saw a covered body on a gurney being wheeled out. The argumentative investigator had hung himself. I later found out that his body was unclaimed in the morgue for months.

I felt bad for him. And as is common I think in such situations, I wondered if I might have contributed to it, in some small way.

So that is how the verses are colored for me.

[Sleeping in EQ]

Prophecy has very little to do with predicting the future, at least not in the sense usually considered.

[BYUruss]

Originally Posted by All-American

We may have discussed this already; maybe we haven't. The teacher of my Civil War history class mentioned Section 87 today in class, naturally leading once more to the conclusion that Joseph Smith was clearly a prophet (when at BYU . . .). I'd like to hear what everybody here thinks of this section, here reproduced in full:

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord concerning the wars that will shortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls;
2 And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place.
3 For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then war shall be poured out upon all nations.
4 And it shall come to pass, after many days, slaves shall rise up against their masters, who shall be marshaled and disciplined for war.
5 And it shall come to pass also that the remnants who are left of the land will marshal themselves, and shall become exceedingly angry, and shall vex the Gentiles with a sore vexation.
6 And thus, with the sword and by bloodshed the inhabitants of the earth shall mourn; and with famine, and plague, and earthquake, and the thunder of heaven, and the fierce and vivid lightning also, shall the inhabitants of the earth be made to feel the wrath, and indignation, and chastening hand of an Almighty God, until the consumption decreed hath made a full fend of all nations;
7 That the cry of the saints, and of the blood of the saints, shall cease to come up into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth, from the earth, to be avenged of their enemies.
8 Wherefore, stand ye in holy places, and be not moved, until the day of the Lord come; for behold, it cometh quickly, saith the Lord. Amen.

If this is accepted as prophesy-and I'm certainly not saying that it isn't-then don't you have to also accept things prophets talked about that didn't happen as failed prophesies? I once pointed this out to an investigator, and after doing some research on his own came to the conclusion it was a lucky guess. He had a list of 30 or so "failed prophesies" from church history, only a couple of which I really remember. This, of course leads to the discussion of when a prophet is spiritually speaking or when he's just speculating. All I know is BY sure did speculate quite a bit.

[hyrum]

Originally Posted by All-American

We may have discussed this already; maybe we haven't. The teacher of my Civil War history class mentioned Section 87 today in class, naturally leading once more to the conclusion that Joseph Smith was clearly a prophet (when at BYU . . .). I'd like to hear what everybody here thinks of this section, here reproduced in full:

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord concerning the wars that will shortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls;
2 And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place.
3 For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then war shall be poured out upon all nations.
4 And it shall come to pass, after many days, slaves shall rise up against their masters, who shall be marshaled and disciplined for war.
5 And it shall come to pass also that the remnants who are left of the land will marshal themselves, and shall become exceedingly angry, and shall vex the Gentiles with a sore vexation.
6 And thus, with the sword and by bloodshed the inhabitants of the earth shall mourn; and with famine, and plague, and earthquake, and the thunder of heaven, and the fierce and vivid lightning also, shall the inhabitants of the earth be made to feel the wrath, and indignation, and chastening hand of an Almighty God, until the consumption decreed hath made a full fend of all nations;
7 That the cry of the saints, and of the blood of the saints, shall cease to come up into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth, from the earth, to be avenged of their enemies.
8 Wherefore, stand ye in holy places, and be not moved, until the day of the Lord come; for behold, it cometh quickly, saith the Lord. Amen.

Maybe be should have quit at #4, not even sure that happened.

There was a Civil War, due to animosities that had built up for decades, but it was not Armageddon as he seemed to believe.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by hyrum

Maybe be should have quit at #4, not even sure that happened.

There was a Civil War, due to animosities that had built up for decades, but it was not Armageddon as he seemed to believe.

[All-American]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

Nice.

200,000 or so blacks fought for the Union during the Civil War. It was also interesting to learn the extent to which slaves pushed the emancipation issue. They forced Union armies to respond with policies by rushing to their camps. Union attitude slowly evolved from refusing to return them, to confiscating slaves used in the war effort, to confiscating slaves whose owners supported the war effort, to emancipation en masse; none of that would have happened if it were not for slaves leaving their masters behind in substantial numbers.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

If not a prophesy, you have to at least agree it was a pretty remarkable guess.

I will go with prophesy.

Where's the original document? How do we know this wasn't dressed up or fabricated like what those monks sometimes did with the ancient writings? I'm betting there's no original.

[BlueK]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

Where's the original document? How do we know this wasn't dressed up or fabricated like what those monks sometimes did with the ancient writings? I'm betting there's no original.

Seattle, I thought you were going to come up with a more sophisticated, logical, historically based argument why this propechy isn't a big deal but I guess American history is not your strength.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

If not a prophesy, you have to at least agree it was a pretty remarkable guess.

I will go with prophesy.

Moreover, there is much in this prophesy that is over the top. Events didn't exactly unforld as described here, did they?