Screed on Infallibility

[Sleeping in EQ]

It never ceases to amaze that people don't actually read the scriptures. I'm going to list just a few sources of my POV that a Church member can reject the insinuations that everything that is spoken or written by a Church leader must be agreed with (including the recent California memo). These are the sorts of passages and quotes that zealots habitually ignore, but frankly, I think that we as a Church should pay more attention to them.

If the Church wants someone opposed to the California memo to take it more seriously, they know what to do. Follow the scriptures. This would mean ceasing to try to push people around with a memo and putting a document forward to the voice of the people as revelation for the Church to be canonized. If this issue is as important as the memo declares, then there should be a willingness to do this. In my view, the bureaucratic mentality has gotten way out of hand. Memos are taken as revelation. The people are subject to a Handbook of Instructions that they do not have free and unfettered access to, let alone any meaningful input regarding. Common Consent has become a meaningless Communist Party vote, with sychophants and toadies feeling justified in trying to declare "settled doctrines" as they go about imposing their views on others. And all of this in the name of convenience for leaders.

I offer the following scriptures and quotes as food for thought. I've offered others at other times, but these may be "new" to some:

Deut. 18:21-22:

"You may say to yourself, "How can we recognize a word that the Lord has not spoken?" If a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord but the thing does not take place or prove true, it is a word that the Lord has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; do not be frightened by it." (NRSV)

D&C 107: 81-84:

81 There is not any person belonging to the church who is exempt from this council of the church.

82 And inasmuch as a President of the High Priesthood shall transgress, he shall be had in remembrance before the common council of the church, who shall be assisted by twelve counselors of the High Priesthood;


83 And their decision upon his head shall be an end of controversy concerning him.


84 Thus, none shall be exempted from the justice and the laws of God, that all things may be done in order and in solemnity before him, according to truth and righteousness.

D&C 26:2
2 And all things shall be done by common consent in the church, by much prayer and faith, for all things you shall receive by faith. Amen.

D&C 28:13
13 For all things must be done in order, and by common consent in the church, by the prayer of faith.

And then from some Church leaders:

Brigham Young, May 8, 1854:

"I have known many times that I have preached [w]rong but I asked the Father in the name of Jesus to take it from the minds of the people and I believe he always did drop the [veil] over it."

Orson Hyde (on the occasion of Sidney Rigdon's proposed guardianship):

"There is a way by which all revelations purporting to be from God through any man can be tested. Brother Joseph gave us the plan, says he, when all the quorums are assembled and organized in order, if it pass one let it go to another, and if it pass that, to another, and so on until it has passed all the quorums; and if it pass the whole without running against a snag, then says he, it wants enquiring into: you must see to it. It is known to some who are present that there is a quorum organized where revelation can be tested. Brother Joseph said, let no revelation go to the people until it has been tested here. Now I would ask, did Elder Rigdon call the quorum together and there lay his revelation before it, to have it tested? No, he did not wait to call the quorum; neither did he call the authorities together that were here. He endeavored to ensnare the people and lure their minds by his flowery eloquence; but the plan was defeated. The voice of the people was in favor of sustaining the Twelve to be their leaders....When any man comes here with a revelation purporting to be from God, we feel duty bound to question its validity. This is a kind of furnace to prove all things, and Elder Rigdon don't like to come into the furnace." [emphasis mine]

Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 3:203:

"It makes no difference what is written or what anyone has said, if what has been said is in conflict with what the Lord has revealed, we can set it aside. My words and the teachings of any other member of the Church, high or low, if they do not square with the revelations, we need not accept them. Let us have this matter clear. We have accepted the four standard works as the measuring yardsticks, or balances, by which we measure every man's doctrine."

The source of the undoctrinal notion that Church leaders do our thinking for us: the Ward Teachers Message of June 1945:

"When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done. When they propose a plan--it is God's plan. When they point the way, there is no other which is safe. When they give direction, it should mark the end of controversy. God works in no other way. To think otherwise, without immediate repentance, may cost one his faith, may destroy his testimony, and leave him a stranger to the kingdom of God."


And President George Albert Smith's reaction to the Ward Teachers Message of June 1945:

Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints
Office of the First Presidency
Salt Lake City, Utah

December 7, 1945

Dr. J. Raymond Cope
First Unitarian Society
13th East at 6th South Street
Salt Lake City, Utah

My dear Dr. Cope:
I have read with interest and deep concern your letter of November 16, 1945, in which you make special comment on "a short religious editorial prepared by one of your (our) leaders entitled "Sustaining the General Authorities of the Church'". You say that you read the message with amazement, and that you have since been disturbed because of its effect upon members of the Church.

I am gratified with the spirit of friendliness that pervades your letter, and thank you for having taken the time to write to me. The leaflet to which you refer, and from which you quote in your letter, was not "prepared" by "one of our leaders." However, one or more of them inadvertently permitted the paragraph to pass uncensored. By their so doing, not a few members of the Church have been upset in their feelings, and General Authorities have been embarrassed.

I am pleased to assure you that you are right in your attitude that the passage quoted does not express the true position of the Church. Even to imply that members of the Church are not to do their own thinking is grossly to misrepresent the true ideal of the Church, which is that every individual must obtain for himself a testimony of the truth of the Gospel, must, through the redemption of Jesus Christ, work out his own salvation, and is personally responsible to His Maker for his individual acts. The Lord Himself does not attempt coercion in His desire and effort to give peace and salvation to His children. He gives the principles of life and true progress, but leaves every person free to choose or to reject His teachings. This plan the Authorities of the Church try to follow.

The Prophet Joseph Smith once said: "I want liberty of thinking and believing as I please." This liberty he and his successors in the leadership of the Church have granted to every other member thereof. On one occasion in answer to the question by a prominent visitor how he governed his people, the Prophet answered: "I teach them correct principles, and they govern themselves."

Again, as recorded in the History of the Church (Volume 5, page 498 [499] Joseph Smith said further: "If I esteem mankind to be in error, shall I bear them down? No. I will lift them up, and in their own way too, if I cannot persuade them my way is better; and I will not seek to compel any man to believe as I do, only by the force of reasoning, for truth will cut its own way."

I cite these few quotations, from many that might be given, merely to confirm your good and true opinion that the Church gives to every man his free agency, and admonishes him always to use the reason and good judgment with which God has blessed him.
In the advocacy of this principle leaders of the Church not only join congregations in singing but quote frequently the following:

"Know this, that every soul is free
To choose his life and what he'll be,
For this eternal truth is given
That God will force no man to heaven."

Again I thank you for your manifest friendliness and for your expressed willingness to cooperate in every way to establish good will and harmony among the people with whom we are jointly laboring to bring brotherhood and tolerance.

Faithfully yours,

Geo. Albert Smith [signed]

[Solon]

Originally Posted by Sleeping in EQ

It never ceases to amaze that people don't actually read the scriptures. I'm going to list just a few sources of my POV that a Church member can reject the insinuations that everything that is spoken or written by a Church leader must be agreed with (including the recent California memo). These are the sorts of passages and quotes that zealots habitually ignore, but frankly, I think that we as a Church should pay more attention to them.

If the Church wants someone opposed to the California memo to take it more seriously, they know what to do. Follow the scriptures. This would mean ceasing to try to push people around with a memo and putting a document forward to the voice of the people as revelation for the Church to be canonized. If this issue is as important as the memo declares, then there should be a willingness to do this. In my view, the bureaucratic mentality has gotten way out of hand. Memos are taken as revelation. The people are subject to a Handbook of Instructions that they do not have free and unfettered access to, let alone any meaningful input regarding. Common Consent has become a meaningless Communist Party vote, with sychophants and toadies feeling justified in trying to declare "settled doctrines" as they go about imposing their views on others. And all of this in the name of convenience for leaders.

I offer the following scriptures and quotes as food for thought. I've offered others at other times, but these may be "new" to some:

Deut. 18:21-22:

"You may say to yourself, "How can we recognize a word that the Lord has not spoken?" If a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord but the thing does not take place or prove true, it is a word that the Lord has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; do not be frightened by it." (NRSV)

D&C 107: 81-84:

81 There is not any person belonging to the church who is exempt from this council of the church.

82 And inasmuch as a President of the High Priesthood shall transgress, he shall be had in remembrance before the common council of the church, who shall be assisted by twelve counselors of the High Priesthood;


83 And their decision upon his head shall be an end of controversy concerning him.


84 Thus, none shall be exempted from the justice and the laws of God, that all things may be done in order and in solemnity before him, according to truth and righteousness.

D&C 26:2
2 And all things shall be done by common consent in the church, by much prayer and faith, for all things you shall receive by faith. Amen.

D&C 28:13
13 For all things must be done in order, and by common consent in the church, by the prayer of faith.

And then from some Church leaders:

Brigham Young, May 8, 1854:

"I have known many times that I have preached [w]rong but I asked the Father in the name of Jesus to take it from the minds of the people and I believe he always did drop the [veil] over it."

Orson Hyde (on the occasion of Sidney Rigdon's proposed guardianship):

"There is a way by which all revelations purporting to be from God through any man can be tested. Brother Joseph gave us the plan, says he, when all the quorums are assembled and organized in order, if it pass one let it go to another, and if it pass that, to another, and so on until it has passed all the quorums; and if it pass the whole without running against a snag, then says he, it wants enquiring into: you must see to it. It is known to some who are present that there is a quorum organized where revelation can be tested. Brother Joseph said, let no revelation go to the people until it has been tested here. Now I would ask, did Elder Rigdon call the quorum together and there lay his revelation before it, to have it tested? No, he did not wait to call the quorum; neither did he call the authorities together that were here. He endeavored to ensnare the people and lure their minds by his flowery eloquence; but the plan was defeated. The voice of the people was in favor of sustaining the Twelve to be their leaders....When any man comes here with a revelation purporting to be from God, we feel duty bound to question its validity. This is a kind of furnace to prove all things, and Elder Rigdon don't like to come into the furnace." [emphasis mine]

Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 3:203:

"It makes no difference what is written or what anyone has said, if what has been said is in conflict with what the Lord has revealed, we can set it aside. My words and the teachings of any other member of the Church, high or low, if they do not square with the revelations, we need not accept them. Let us have this matter clear. We have accepted the four standard works as the measuring yardsticks, or balances, by which we measure every man's doctrine."

The source of the undoctrinal notion that Church leaders do our thinking for us: the Ward Teachers Message of June 1945:

"When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done. When they propose a plan--it is God's plan. When they point the way, there is no other which is safe. When they give direction, it should mark the end of controversy. God works in no other way. To think otherwise, without immediate repentance, may cost one his faith, may destroy his testimony, and leave him a stranger to the kingdom of God."


And President George Albert Smith's reaction to the Ward Teachers Message of June 1945:

Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints
Office of the First Presidency
Salt Lake City, Utah

December 7, 1945

Dr. J. Raymond Cope
First Unitarian Society
13th East at 6th South Street
Salt Lake City, Utah

My dear Dr. Cope:
I have read with interest and deep concern your letter of November 16, 1945, in which you make special comment on "a short religious editorial prepared by one of your (our) leaders entitled "Sustaining the General Authorities of the Church'". You say that you read the message with amazement, and that you have since been disturbed because of its effect upon members of the Church.

I am gratified with the spirit of friendliness that pervades your letter, and thank you for having taken the time to write to me. The leaflet to which you refer, and from which you quote in your letter, was not "prepared" by "one of our leaders." However, one or more of them inadvertently permitted the paragraph to pass uncensored. By their so doing, not a few members of the Church have been upset in their feelings, and General Authorities have been embarrassed.

I am pleased to assure you that you are right in your attitude that the passage quoted does not express the true position of the Church. Even to imply that members of the Church are not to do their own thinking is grossly to misrepresent the true ideal of the Church, which is that every individual must obtain for himself a testimony of the truth of the Gospel, must, through the redemption of Jesus Christ, work out his own salvation, and is personally responsible to His Maker for his individual acts. The Lord Himself does not attempt coercion in His desire and effort to give peace and salvation to His children. He gives the principles of life and true progress, but leaves every person free to choose or to reject His teachings. This plan the Authorities of the Church try to follow.

The Prophet Joseph Smith once said: "I want liberty of thinking and believing as I please." This liberty he and his successors in the leadership of the Church have granted to every other member thereof. On one occasion in answer to the question by a prominent visitor how he governed his people, the Prophet answered: "I teach them correct principles, and they govern themselves."

Again, as recorded in the History of the Church (Volume 5, page 498 [499] Joseph Smith said further: "If I esteem mankind to be in error, shall I bear them down? No. I will lift them up, and in their own way too, if I cannot persuade them my way is better; and I will not seek to compel any man to believe as I do, only by the force of reasoning, for truth will cut its own way."

I cite these few quotations, from many that might be given, merely to confirm your good and true opinion that the Church gives to every man his free agency, and admonishes him always to use the reason and good judgment with which God has blessed him.
In the advocacy of this principle leaders of the Church not only join congregations in singing but quote frequently the following:

"Know this, that every soul is free
To choose his life and what he'll be,
For this eternal truth is given
That God will force no man to heaven."

Again I thank you for your manifest friendliness and for your expressed willingness to cooperate in every way to establish good will and harmony among the people with whom we are jointly laboring to bring brotherhood and tolerance.

Faithfully yours,

Geo. Albert Smith [signed]

Lest you begin to feel that we take you for granted, thank you for taking the effort to post these primary sources - here and in other threads. They're excellent resources.

[creekster]

Originally Posted by Solon

Lest you begin to feel that we take you for granted, thank you for taking the effort to post these primary sources - here and in other threads. They're excellent resources.

I'll echo this. WHile we may not see eye to eye on everything, I very much apprecaite the posting of these materials.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by Solon

Lest you begin to feel that we take you for granted, thank you for taking the effort to post these primary sources - here and in other threads. They're excellent resources.

Yes, thanks for that. I have bookmarked the George Albert Smith letter. I am tempted to print some copies and keep them in my scriptures to hand out to the mullahs at church when they make that dreaded quote.

[scottie]

Originally Posted by Sleeping in EQ

The source of the undoctrinal notion that Church leaders do our thinking for us: the Ward Teachers Message of June 1945:

"When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done. When they propose a plan--it is God's plan. When they point the way, there is no other which is safe. When they give direction, it should mark the end of controversy. God works in no other way. To think otherwise, without immediate repentance, may cost one his faith, may destroy his testimony, and leave him a stranger to the kingdom of God."

I could be wrong but hasn't Boyd K. Packer said something similar?

[Sleeping in EQ]

Originally Posted by scottie

I could be wrong but hasn't Boyd K. Packer said something similar?

N Eldon Tanner said something to the effect of, "When the prophet speaks the debate is over," but plenty of other Church leaders strongly disagree. Deut. 18, that I cited above, should certainly give someone pause as it outright says that prophets sometimes are not speaking for God, but are rather speaking "presumptuously."

Major Higbee shouted "Do your duty" to the murderous priesthood holders at Mountain Meadows. Anyone with her/his own moral compass would not have shot those innocent people.

In 1983, Elder Packer said:

"Those who talk of blind obedience . . . do not understand the doctrines of the gospel. There is an obedience that comes from a knowledge of the truth that transcends any external form of control. We are not obedient because we are blind, we are obedient because we can see." (Church News, 20 April 1991, p.14)."


Elder Packer's mentor, J. Rebuen Clark, said in 1954:

"We can tell when the speakers are 'moved upon by the Holy Ghost' only when we, ourselves are 'moved upon by the Holy Ghost.' In a way, this completely shifts the responsibility from them to us to determine when they so speak."

Here are some additional examples:

Charles Penrose in the Millenaial Star:

"President Wilford Woodruff is a man of wisdom and experience, and we respect him, but we do not believe his personal views or utterances are revelations from God; and when 'Thus saith the Lord', comes from him, the saints investigate it: they do not shut their eyes and take it down like a pill."


And another Charles Penrose:

"And none are required to tamely and blindly submit to a man because he has a portion of the priesthood. We have heard men who hold the priesthood remark, that they would do anything they were told to do by those who presided over them, if they knew it was wrong; but such obedience as this is worse than folly to us; it is slavery in the extreme; and the man who would thus willingly degrade himself should not claim a rank among intelligent beings, until he turns from his folly. A man of God... would despise the idea. Others, in the extreme exercise of their almighty authority have taught that such obedience was necessary, and that no matter what the saints were told to do by their presidents, they should do it without asking any questions. When Elders of Israel will so far indulge in these extreme notions of obedience as to teach them to the people, it is generally because they have it in their minds to do wrong themselves."

Brigham Young in Journal of Discourses 9:150:


"What a pity it would be, if we were led by one man to utter destruction! Are you afraid of this? I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken the influence they could give to their leaders, did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know, themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not. This has been my exhortation continually." (JD 9:150)


and Brigham again in JD 4:36

"How easy it would be for your leaders to lead you to destruction, unless you actually know the mind and will of the spirit yourselves."

and Brigham again in JD 3:45

"I do not wish any Latter-day Saint in this world, nor in heaven, to be satisfied with anything I do, unless the Spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ, the spirit of revelation, makes them satisfied...Suppose that the people were heedless, that they manifested no concern with regard to the things of the kingdom of God, but threw the whole burden upon the leaders of the people, saying, 'If the brethren who take charge of matters are satisfied, we are,' this is not pleasing in the sight of the Lord."

and Brigham yet again in JD 1:312:

"...Now those men, or those women, who know no more about the power of God, and the influences of the Holy Spirit, than to be led entirely by another person, suspending their own understanding, and pinning their faith upon another's sleeve, will never be capable of entering into the celestial glory, to be crowned as they anticipate; they will never be capable of becoming Gods. They cannot rule themselves, to say nothing of ruling others, but they must be dictated to in every trifle, like a child. They cannot control themselves in the least, but James, Peter, or somebody else must control them. They never can become Gods, nor be crowned as rulers with glory, immortality, and eternal lives. They never can hold sceptres of glory, majesty, and power in the celestial kingdom. Who will? Those who are valiant and inspired with the true independence of heaven, who will go forth boldly in the service of their God, leaving others to do as they please, determined to do right, though all mankind besides should take the opposite course. Will this apply to any of you? Your own hearts can answer." (JD 1:312)

From the Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith 237-23:

President Joseph Smith read the 14th chapter of Ezekiel [see, for example, verses 9-10: 'If the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing...the punishment of the prophet shall be even as the punishment of him that seeketh unto him.']...said the Lord had declared by the Prophet [Ezekiel], that the people should each one stand for himself, and depend on no man or men in that state of corruption of the Jewish church -- that righteous persons could only deliver their own souls -- applied it to the present state [1842] of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints -- said if the people departed from the Lord, they must fall -- that they were depending on the Prophet, hence were darkened in their minds, in consequence of neglecting the duties devolving upon themselves..."

---------------------------------------------------------------

I have dozens and dozens of these quotes, some even specifically teaching against the "the Prophet can't lead us astray" business. Some time I'll have to do a definitive post.

[SoCalCoug]

Originally Posted by Sleeping in EQ

N Eldon Tanner said something to the effect of, "When the prophet speaks the debate is over," but plenty of other Church leaders strongly disagree. Deut. 18, that I cited above, should certainly give someone pause as it outright says that prophets sometimes are not speaking for God, but are rather speaking "presumptuously."

Major Higbee shouted "Do your duty" to the murderous priesthood holders at Mountain Meadows. Anyone with her/his own moral compass would not have shot those innocent people.

In 1983, Elder Packer said:

"Those who talk of blind obedience . . . do not understand the doctrines of the gospel. There is an obedience that comes from a knowledge of the truth that transcends any external form of control. We are not obedient because we are blind, we are obedient because we can see." (Church News, 20 April 1991, p.14)."


Elder Packer's mentor, J. Rebuen Clark, said in 1954:

"We can tell when the speakers are 'moved upon by the Holy Ghost' only when we, ourselves are 'moved upon by the Holy Ghost.' In a way, this completely shifts the responsibility from them to us to determine when they so speak."

Here are some additional examples:

Charles Penrose in the Millenaial Star:

"President Wilford Woodruff is a man of wisdom and experience, and we respect him, but we do not believe his personal views or utterances are revelations from God; and when 'Thus saith the Lord', comes from him, the saints investigate it: they do not shut their eyes and take it down like a pill."


And another Charles Penrose:

"And none are required to tamely and blindly submit to a man because he has a portion of the priesthood. We have heard men who hold the priesthood remark, that they would do anything they were told to do by those who presided over them, if they knew it was wrong; but such obedience as this is worse than folly to us; it is slavery in the extreme; and the man who would thus willingly degrade himself should not claim a rank among intelligent beings, until he turns from his folly. A man of God... would despise the idea. Others, in the extreme exercise of their almighty authority have taught that such obedience was necessary, and that no matter what the saints were told to do by their presidents, they should do it without asking any questions. When Elders of Israel will so far indulge in these extreme notions of obedience as to teach them to the people, it is generally because they have it in their minds to do wrong themselves."

Brigham Young in Journal of Discourses 9:150:


"What a pity it would be, if we were led by one man to utter destruction! Are you afraid of this? I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken the influence they could give to their leaders, did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know, themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not. This has been my exhortation continually." (JD 9:150)


and Brigham again in JD 4:36

"How easy it would be for your leaders to lead you to destruction, unless you actually know the mind and will of the spirit yourselves."

and Brigham again in JD 3:45

"I do not wish any Latter-day Saint in this world, nor in heaven, to be satisfied with anything I do, unless the Spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ, the spirit of revelation, makes them satisfied...Suppose that the people were heedless, that they manifested no concern with regard to the things of the kingdom of God, but threw the whole burden upon the leaders of the people, saying, 'If the brethren who take charge of matters are satisfied, we are,' this is not pleasing in the sight of the Lord."

and Brigham yet again in JD 1:312:

"...Now those men, or those women, who know no more about the power of God, and the influences of the Holy Spirit, than to be led entirely by another person, suspending their own understanding, and pinning their faith upon another's sleeve, will never be capable of entering into the celestial glory, to be crowned as they anticipate; they will never be capable of becoming Gods. They cannot rule themselves, to say nothing of ruling others, but they must be dictated to in every trifle, like a child. They cannot control themselves in the least, but James, Peter, or somebody else must control them. They never can become Gods, nor be crowned as rulers with glory, immortality, and eternal lives. They never can hold sceptres of glory, majesty, and power in the celestial kingdom. Who will? Those who are valiant and inspired with the true independence of heaven, who will go forth boldly in the service of their God, leaving others to do as they please, determined to do right, though all mankind besides should take the opposite course. Will this apply to any of you? Your own hearts can answer." (JD 1:312)

From the Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith 237-23:

President Joseph Smith read the 14th chapter of Ezekiel [see, for example, verses 9-10: 'If the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing...the punishment of the prophet shall be even as the punishment of him that seeketh unto him.']...said the Lord had declared by the Prophet [Ezekiel], that the people should each one stand for himself, and depend on no man or men in that state of corruption of the Jewish church -- that righteous persons could only deliver their own souls -- applied it to the present state [1842] of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints -- said if the people departed from the Lord, they must fall -- that they were depending on the Prophet, hence were darkened in their minds, in consequence of neglecting the duties devolving upon themselves..."

---------------------------------------------------------------

I have dozens and dozens of these quotes, some even specifically teaching against the "the Prophet can't lead us astray" business. Some time I'll have to do a definitive post.

Aww, that's all just their opinions. We don't have to believe them, right?

[Solon]

Here's a little more context for the Ward Teachers Message [adapted from a talk I gave in March 2007]:

The June 1945 Ward Teacher’s Message in the Improvement Era church magazine cautioned that Satan “wins a great victory when he can get members of the Church to speak out against their own leaders and ‘do their own thinking.’” Furthermore, the Message asserted, “When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done. When they propose a plan – it is God’s plan. When they point the way, there is no other which is safe. When they give direction, it should mark the end of controversy.” [Improvement Era, June 1945, p. 354.]

Six months after the publication of this Ward Teacher’s Message, in response to a query on the matter by a Salt Lake City Unitarian Reverend named Raymond Cope, President George Albert Smith wrote that the message had not been approved by the leaders of the church, that General Authorities had been embarrassed by the misstep and it “does not express the true position of the Church.” He continued, “Even to imply that members of the Church are not to do their own thinking is grossly to misrepresent the true ideal of the Church, which is that every individual must obtain for himself a testimony of the truth of the Gospel.” [Smith’s emphasis. See Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 19, no. 1 (Spring 1986), pp. 35-39 for re-prints of the "Ward Teacher’s Message," Rev. Cope’s letter, and President Smith’s response.]

Brigham Young counseled against the fallacy of this mindset that blind obedience to inspired leaders absolves a person from individual responsibility. He said, I am “afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by Him. I am fearful that they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation”. [Discourses of Brigham Young, 2nd ed., s.v. “Priesthood.” Edited by John Widstoe (Salt Lake City: 1954), re-print of 1926 edition. This passage was cited by Rev. Cope in his letter to President Smith (see note above).]

Thirty years after President George Albert Smith’s letter to Revered Cope, the issue was revisited by Elaine Cannon, at the time the Young Women General President. In her talk at a special Women’s Fireside, held September 16, 1978, President Cannon informed the sisters of the church that, “When the prophet speaks, sisters, the debate is over.” [Printed in the November, 1978 Ensign, p. 108.] Several months later, in the August, 1979 Ensign’s “First Presidency Message,” President N. Eldon Tanner quoted President Cannon’s talk, and re-emphasized that, “When the prophet speaks . . . the debate is over.” [Ensign, August 1979, pg. 2.] Nevertheless, President Tanner nuanced President Cannon’s statement in much the same way that President Smith explained the Church’s stance on free agency and free thinking to Reverend Coles in 1945.

President Tanner explained that “[t]rue Latter-day Saints . . . know that the messages of the prophet have come from the Lord . . . and are not, as some would suggest, following blindly and acting without their own agency to speak and think for themselves. Through prayer to our Heavenly Father each of us can have the assurance that the course we choose has his divine approval.” [Ibidem]

The admonition that the prophet does the thinking for us, has never come from the prophet. For whatever reasons, people seem (in my opinion) all too willing to surrender their responsibility for self-determination and allow others to make their decisions for them. In both of these instances, members of the First Presidency corrected this misconception, although Tanner did so quite delicately.

I suggest that a prophet’s counsel is not the answer, but the roadmap to the answer. Once, when asked how he managed to govern so many people in Nauvoo, the Prophet Joseph Smith replied, “I teach them correct principles, and they govern themselves." [Millenial Star 13:22, pg. 339. Cf. Journal of Discourses 10.39: http://journalofdiscourses.org/Vol_1...Dvol10-13.html ]

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by Adam

I am right with you.

The DOCTRINE of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is no coercion and only gentleness kindness and longsuffering in persuasion with no institutional sanction for independent thought.

The POLICY of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints stands in contrast to the scriptures. It is well stated in this month's First Presidency Message:

So the purpose of the prophet is what?

[Sleeping in EQ]

There is a clear procedure, outlined in scripture, that says what should be done to make something authoritative for the Church. If you believe scriptures such as D&C 20:63-66, 26:2, 28:13, 38:34, 104:21, the burden of inspired governance of the Church is hefted as much by the collective membership as by the leadership.

My position is strong and very consistent with being a faithful Church member. It's found in scripture and is backed up by Church leaders such as Joseph Fielding Smith. If a modern prophet wants something to have the weight of scripture, the weight of the standard works, he has to present it for the voice of the people. Anything else weighs less than scripture.

I found this ditty in my files too:

George Q. Cannon, Oct. 19, 1891:

"Do not, brethren, put your trust in man though he be a Bishop, an Apostle, or a President; if you do, they will fail you at some time or place; they will do wrong or seem to, and your support be gone; but if we lean on God, He never will fail us. When men and women depend on God alone, and trust in Him alone, their faith will not be shaken if the highest in the Church should step aside. They could still see that He is just and true, that truth is lovely in His sight, and the pure in heart are dear to Him.
Perhaps it is His own design that faults and weaknesses should appear in high places in order that His Saints may learn to trust in Him and not in any man or men. Therefore, my brethren and sisters, seek after the Holy Spirit and the unfailing testimony of God and His work upon the earth. Rest not until you know for yourselves that God has set His hand to redeem Israel, and prepare a people for His coming."