Mormon feminism - cougarguard.com — unofficial BYU Cougars / LDS sports, football, basketball forum and message board

MikeWaters · 06-21-2012, 08:24 PM

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/peculia...inism-is-true/

RedHeadGal · 06-25-2012, 04:57 PM

I think one of the favors the gay marriage movement has done for the church is distracting people from this issue of sexism in church. I don't actually know what that article is trying to say. I find myself increasingly jaded as I age. I don't know what that whole Heavenly Mother concept is supposed to do for me. We're talking about life here and now when we discuss this issue. Maybe I'm just a little depressed because I'm commenting here on the heels of reading that Atlantic article on why women can't have it all.
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/...e-it-all/9020/

MikeWaters · 06-25-2012, 07:09 PM

life has tradeoffs. that's for sure. I can't work til dark everyday and expect to spend lots of time with my kids.

Archaea · 06-25-2012, 08:55 PM

Red:

Thanks for an article. It confirms a lot of what my current gf knows. She was a former engineer for a large military contractor, but as she had children, she decided to leave the fast paced life in exchange for establishing her own business which allowed her to be home at certain times, when she otherwise wouldn't. She compromised on the issue of compensation in exchange for controlling her own schedule.

Whereas for me, with children out of the home, save one, I am relatively free to work as I please. If the ex and I had more of a shared joint custody instead of just a theoretical joint custody that might not be true.

In one respect, being a divorced father shows me what working women face and have faced for decades now. I have renewed respect for working, professional or otherwise, women. My gf is tops and balances more than I could ever imagine. Yes, she's divorced, I'm not that type of guy.

RedHeadGal · 06-25-2012, 09:19 PM

Yes, life has trade-offs, but one of the important points the article makes is that the current systems requires trade-offs that don't have to be. More flexibility in my schedule would make the world of difference to me without hindering my work, but it's not allowed. Just because they don't do that here. Sure, flexibility doesn't work for every job, every person, but where it does/would work, it's still often squelched. And I do think more cooperative parenting is becoming more of the norm, but it doesn't seem to be making a difference overall.

RedHeadGal · 06-25-2012, 09:28 PM

And, yes, I'm not sure what it really means to have "it all." Nor am I sure that men have it all. Nor am I sure that I even want it all.

I don't normally post things that are this personal, but since no one is here any more. . . I grew up being taught that it was "the right thing" for women to stay home and raise their children. It was best for the children. I also grew up with professional ambitions and wondered what I would do at the crossroads--would I sacrifice what's best for the kids in exchange for my own drive to work? Would I CTR and see the light? Upon the birth of my first child, I had a profound shift in perspective and realized something that I had never known: I would really WANT to care for that child all the time. I would miss her when we were apart and worry about things I missed. And yet my desire to contribute to the greater good outside my home remained just the same. So it was a different conflict than I expected. And trying to simultaneously pursue both ends has been an ongoing challenge.

MikeWaters · 06-25-2012, 09:52 PM

My children love their mother in a way that they will never love me. That's something she has earned.

A lot of women seem to do find with nannies and the like, kids turn out ok, etc.

And whether your guys' profession contributes to the greater good is debatable.

Archaea · 06-25-2012, 11:04 PM

I certainly wouldn't have been able to tend to children during the younger years full time. I like working on projects I enjoy, but I have no illusion that anything I do actually makes a difference for society. My reason for work is actually quite practical, I need the money.

Even if I ever had enough, I would probably work on projects I enjoy no matter what.

Cooperative parenting when the two parents reside together may alleviate some of what Red is describing. And I certainly don't blame women for finding child care not as uplifting as our mothers may have perceived it. But I am slightly amused that women appear to feel a need to justify their enjoyment of working outside the home. The term, "contributing to society", seems to be such a euphemism. What is wrong with saying, "I don't like changing diapers, I need an intellectual challenge and I am willing to delegate some of the more menial aspects to somebody else?"

Yes, attorneys and physician contribute a service but most of us work for pay and render a service necessary to clients but not really to society at large. I feel no guilt having been in the workplace instead of the home. And I support women either staying at work, having flexible schedules or staying home. I've seen all models work well for the families involved. Our culture tends to describe actions as all good or all bad, when maybe they can all be for the good.

RedHeadGal · 06-26-2012, 07:45 PM

Well, I do feel that my work contributes to the greater good. It's part of what I value in my job, and I don't mean it euphamistically. I'm not Ghandi or anything, but that's how I try to live my life in general--making choices that I feel contribute to the greater good.

Of course, I see raising children as fulfilling that end, too. I am very hesitatant to say that being home with your children fulltime entitles you to the presumption that you are doing that job well. Many women do, many don't. And then kids, in the end, make their own choices independent of how good of a job the parents did. . . All this to say that I try to do my best, as I think most parents do. But how to do our best isn't the same for all of us, and we fall short. It's frustating when you see systemic, often sexist, ways in which things could be better, but they are so deep it seems impossible to get out of them. That's why that article depressed me.

MikeWaters · 06-26-2012, 08:14 PM

I could only read most of the first page. And then I realized she was never going to get to the point.

If you want to be the best at something, you have to be single-minded.

There is no shame in not being single-minded. I'm not.

06-21-2012, 08:24 PM	#1
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	Mormon feminism http://www.patheos.com/blogs/peculia...inism-is-true/

06-25-2012, 08:55 PM	#4
Archaea Assistant to the Regional Manager Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: The Orgasmatron Posts: 24,338	Red: Thanks for an article. It confirms a lot of what my current gf knows. She was a former engineer for a large military contractor, but as she had children, she decided to leave the fast paced life in exchange for establishing her own business which allowed her to be home at certain times, when she otherwise wouldn't. She compromised on the issue of compensation in exchange for controlling her own schedule. Whereas for me, with children out of the home, save one, I am relatively free to work as I please. If the ex and I had more of a shared joint custody instead of just a theoretical joint custody that might not be true. In one respect, being a divorced father shows me what working women face and have faced for decades now. I have renewed respect for working, professional or otherwise, women. My gf is tops and balances more than I could ever imagine. Yes, she's divorced, I'm not that type of guy. __________________ Ἓν οἶδα ὅτι οὐδὲν οἶδα

06-25-2012, 11:04 PM	#8
Archaea Assistant to the Regional Manager Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: The Orgasmatron Posts: 24,338	I certainly wouldn't have been able to tend to children during the younger years full time. I like working on projects I enjoy, but I have no illusion that anything I do actually makes a difference for society. My reason for work is actually quite practical, I need the money. Even if I ever had enough, I would probably work on projects I enjoy no matter what. Cooperative parenting when the two parents reside together may alleviate some of what Red is describing. And I certainly don't blame women for finding child care not as uplifting as our mothers may have perceived it. But I am slightly amused that women appear to feel a need to justify their enjoyment of working outside the home. The term, "contributing to society", seems to be such a euphemism. What is wrong with saying, "I don't like changing diapers, I need an intellectual challenge and I am willing to delegate some of the more menial aspects to somebody else?" Yes, attorneys and physician contribute a service but most of us work for pay and render a service necessary to clients but not really to society at large. I feel no guilt having been in the workplace instead of the home. And I support women either staying at work, having flexible schedules or staying home. I've seen all models work well for the families involved. Our culture tends to describe actions as all good or all bad, when maybe they can all be for the good. __________________ Ἓν οἶδα ὅτι οὐδὲν οἶδα

06-25-2012, 04:57 PM	#2
RedHeadGal Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: DC Posts: 995	I think one of the favors the gay marriage movement has done for the church is distracting people from this issue of sexism in church. I don't actually know what that article is trying to say. I find myself increasingly jaded as I age. I don't know what that whole Heavenly Mother concept is supposed to do for me. We're talking about life here and now when we discuss this issue. Maybe I'm just a little depressed because I'm commenting here on the heels of reading that Atlantic article on why women can't have it all. http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/...e-it-all/9020/

06-25-2012, 07:09 PM	#3
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	life has tradeoffs. that's for sure. I can't work til dark everyday and expect to spend lots of time with my kids.

06-25-2012, 09:19 PM	#5
RedHeadGal Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: DC Posts: 995	Yes, life has trade-offs, but one of the important points the article makes is that the current systems requires trade-offs that don't have to be. More flexibility in my schedule would make the world of difference to me without hindering my work, but it's not allowed. Just because they don't do that here. Sure, flexibility doesn't work for every job, every person, but where it does/would work, it's still often squelched. And I do think more cooperative parenting is becoming more of the norm, but it doesn't seem to be making a difference overall.

06-25-2012, 09:28 PM	#6
RedHeadGal Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: DC Posts: 995	And, yes, I'm not sure what it really means to have "it all." Nor am I sure that men have it all. Nor am I sure that I even want it all. I don't normally post things that are this personal, but since no one is here any more. . . I grew up being taught that it was "the right thing" for women to stay home and raise their children. It was best for the children. I also grew up with professional ambitions and wondered what I would do at the crossroads--would I sacrifice what's best for the kids in exchange for my own drive to work? Would I CTR and see the light? Upon the birth of my first child, I had a profound shift in perspective and realized something that I had never known: I would really WANT to care for that child all the time. I would miss her when we were apart and worry about things I missed. And yet my desire to contribute to the greater good outside my home remained just the same. So it was a different conflict than I expected. And trying to simultaneously pursue both ends has been an ongoing challenge.

06-25-2012, 09:52 PM	#7
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	My children love their mother in a way that they will never love me. That's something she has earned. A lot of women seem to do find with nannies and the like, kids turn out ok, etc. And whether your guys' profession contributes to the greater good is debatable.

06-26-2012, 07:45 PM	#9
RedHeadGal Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: DC Posts: 995	Well, I do feel that my work contributes to the greater good. It's part of what I value in my job, and I don't mean it euphamistically. I'm not Ghandi or anything, but that's how I try to live my life in general--making choices that I feel contribute to the greater good. Of course, I see raising children as fulfilling that end, too. I am very hesitatant to say that being home with your children fulltime entitles you to the presumption that you are doing that job well. Many women do, many don't. And then kids, in the end, make their own choices independent of how good of a job the parents did. . . All this to say that I try to do my best, as I think most parents do. But how to do our best isn't the same for all of us, and we fall short. It's frustating when you see systemic, often sexist, ways in which things could be better, but they are so deep it seems impossible to get out of them. That's why that article depressed me.

06-26-2012, 08:14 PM	#10
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	I could only read most of the first page. And then I realized she was never going to get to the point. If you want to be the best at something, you have to be single-minded. There is no shame in not being single-minded. I'm not.