REAL Roots of Cougars' Struggles - cougarguard.com — unofficial BYU Cougars / LDS sports, football, basketball forum and message board

TheSizzle36 · 08-03-2006, 06:41 PM

What are the top three reasons for the Cougars' struggles in football over the last 7 or 8 years? Just curious. Go ahead and pick the top 3 reasons why.

Venkman · 08-03-2006, 08:19 PM

you guys that choose other - please elaborate. I'm interested...

TheSizzle36 · 08-03-2006, 08:26 PM

I was one who selected Other...

I should have put an option as the evolution of the college football game, in that the environment in which BYU did it's damage before has made it harder for them to do today.

El Guapo · 08-03-2006, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSizzle36

I was one who selected Other...

I should have put an option as the evolution of the college football game, in that the environment in which BYU did it's damage before has made it harder for them to do today.

I would also pick other, and say that players violating the honor code has been a huge problem -which isn't related to it being more closely enforced either. Any gang rape during any point in time of the existence of BYU (and pretty much any other school) would and should get you expelled. Other violations have also been a result of an athlete doing something that has always been prohibited. The honor code may be tougher now, but what many of the expelled players did would have got them kicked out before the honor code got stricter.

ChinoCoug · 08-04-2006, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by El Guapo

I would also pick other, and say that players violating the honor code has been a huge problem -which isn't related to it being more closely enforced either. Any gang rape during any point in time of the existence of BYU (and pretty much any other school) would and should get you expelled. Other violations have also been a result of an athlete doing something that has always been prohibited. The honor code may be tougher now, but what many of the expelled players did would have got them kicked out before the honor code got stricter.

Note to El Guapo: There was never a gang rape, in both 2003 and 2004. In just about every other school, the players would have been allowed to stay on.

TheSizzle36 · 08-04-2006, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChinoCoug

Note to El Guapo: There was never a gang rape, in both 2003 and 2004. In just about every other school, the players would have been allowed to stay on.

Ding ding ding! We have a winner!

In 2003 the girl admitted about lying about being raped so SHE wouldn't face the punishment of the honor code.

In 2004, I believe all involved were acquitted? Correct me if I'm wrong. So then, what ever happened to 'innocent until proven guilty?' With the Honor Code Office, it's really 'guilty until proven innocent'. Which is somewhat ironic when you think of what 'Honor Code' should stand for.

myboynoah · 08-04-2006, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSizzle36

In 2004, I believe all involved were acquitted? Correct me if I'm wrong. So then, what ever happened to 'innocent until proven guilty?' With the Honor Code Office, it's really 'guilty until proven innocent'. Which is somewhat ironic when you think of what 'Honor Code' should stand for.

I think one of the biggest problems is cultural (I think you allude to this in an earlier post). My dealings with the HCO made me feel like I was talking to a Church authority (Bishop, SP, something like that). I was familiar with the Rs of repentance so I applied them with the HCO and was sent on my way. Granted, I was never there for anything more than dress and grooming issues, but others that went for more serious issues reported the same type of treatment. Being white and Mormon probably helps.

Non-Mormons are ill prepared to negotiate the process, since they probably don't fully understand it. Their instinct is probably to deny and wait for proof to be presented, when confession and begging for forgiveness would be much more effective. Tears would also be very helpful. But that doesn't happen because they are not programmed that way. Hence. harsher treatment.

That said, given the publicity surrounding those accused of gang rape, I don't know if anything could have saved them from expulsion. Under the current political climate, I honestly wonder if other schools might not have reacted similarly.

jay santos · 08-04-2006, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSizzle36

Ding ding ding! We have a winner!

In 2003 the girl admitted about lying about being raped so SHE wouldn't face the punishment of the honor code.

In 2004, I believe all involved were acquitted? Correct me if I'm wrong. So then, what ever happened to 'innocent until proven guilty?' With the Honor Code Office, it's really 'guilty until proven innocent'. Which is somewhat ironic when you think of what 'Honor Code' should stand for.

I'm about as far to the left as it comes for an active, LDS, BYU fan when it comes to what I think is allowable for non-LDS football players.

But even for me, picking up a 17 year old girl, showing her porn, getting her drunk, and then taking turns with her is a little hard to stomach. That's the kind of offense that actually deserves getting booted. That's predatory behavior at its worse.

Surfah · 08-05-2006, 05:56 AM

I think you can justifiably check off every single answer in the poll and argue each one reasonably well.

As far as other, I agree with Sizzle and Goat...the passing scheme is what allowed us to dominate offensively for a long period of time. Now that other schools are running those offensive schemes with superior athletes and talent we can't keep up.

However, I don't believe losing Ricks was that big of a deal.

My top 3: Lack of talent, poor schemes for talent on the field, and other.

TheSizzle36 · 08-05-2006, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jay santos

I'm about as far to the left as it comes for an active, LDS, BYU fan when it comes to what I think is allowable for non-LDS football players.

But even for me, picking up a 17 year old girl, showing her porn, getting her drunk, and then taking turns with her is a little hard to stomach. That's the kind of offense that actually deserves getting booted. That's predatory behavior at its worse.

The situation certainly sucked for all involved. I really quit following what happened exactly, so I don't know who was guilty of what.

And while that isn't cool, ESPECIALLY in the LDS community, I have to believe that the guys who were responsible for what happened thought to themselves, "Well, camp starts soon and we're going to be BYU Students and have to live by the honor code... let's have one last 'party' before practice starts." I don't know the 17 year old girl, and I wasn't there that night so I don't know exactly what happened. If I had to take my guess, that would be WHY they did it. I'm not condoning it in ANY way... but I think that the Honor Code Office should have been fairer with the players actually giving them a chance to let the legal system do its job first, figure out what happened, and then suspend. The players deserve their share of the blame as well, I'm not trying to claim they were without fault here. But just not a good way the whole ordeal was handled, IMO.

View Poll Results: Why have the Cougars' fallen/struggled
Better MWC Competition	13	46.43%
Loss of Ricks football program	8	28.57%
Tighter Honor Code restrictions/enforcement	10	35.71%
Incompetent Coaches	9	32.14%
Incompetent Administration	7	25.00%
Lack of talent in players	9	32.14%
Poor Scheme selection for talent level	6	21.43%
Loss of LaVell	5	17.86%
Injuries	3	10.71%
Other	8	28.57%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 28. You may not vote on this poll

08-03-2006, 06:41 PM	#1
TheSizzle36 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,786	REAL Roots of Cougars' Struggles What are the top three reasons for the Cougars' struggles in football over the last 7 or 8 years? Just curious. Go ahead and pick the top 3 reasons why.

08-05-2006, 05:56 AM	#9
Surfah Master Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: F'burg, VA Posts: 3,211	I think you can justifiably check off every single answer in the poll and argue each one reasonably well. As far as other, I agree with Sizzle and Goat...the passing scheme is what allowed us to dominate offensively for a long period of time. Now that other schools are running those offensive schemes with superior athletes and talent we can't keep up. However, I don't believe losing Ricks was that big of a deal. My top 3: Lack of talent, poor schemes for talent on the field, and other. __________________ Ernie Johnson: "Auburn is a pretty good school. To graduate from there I suppose you really need to work hard and put forth maximum effort." Charles Barkley: "20 pts and 10 rebounds will get you through also!" Last edited by Surfah; 08-05-2006 at 05:58 AM.

08-03-2006, 08:19 PM	#2
Venkman Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: South Jordan, UT Posts: 1,799	you guys that choose other - please elaborate. I'm interested...

08-03-2006, 08:26 PM	#3
TheSizzle36 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,786	I was one who selected Other... I should have put an option as the evolution of the college football game, in that the environment in which BYU did it's damage before has made it harder for them to do today.