any one know the whole story of D&C 7?

[Mormon Red Death]

THE
DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS
SECTION 7
Revelation given to Joseph Smith the Prophet and Oliver Cowdery, at Harmony, Pennsylvania, April 1829, when they inquired through the Urim and Thummim as to whether John, the beloved disciple, tarried in the flesh or had died. The revelation is a translated version of the record made on parchment by John and hidden up by himself. HC 1: 35–36.

Joseph Smith found a parchment written by John?

[Chapel-Hill-Coug]

Originally Posted by Mormon Red Death

THE
DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS
SECTION 7
Revelation given to Joseph Smith the Prophet and Oliver Cowdery, at Harmony, Pennsylvania, April 1829, when they inquired through the Urim and Thummim as to whether John, the beloved disciple, tarried in the flesh or had died. The revelation is a translated version of the record made on parchment by John and hidden up by himself. HC 1: 35–36.

Joseph Smith found a parchment written by John?

I've always found this section curious, given that in John 21:22-24, the author implies both that John did die and that rumors regarding him never dying were false. His community, who is responsible for chapter 21 of John, seems to have known that he died.

[MikeWaters]

I would guess that the interpretation is that JS was able to view the parchment through the U&T.

[creekster]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

I would guess that the interpretation is that JS was able to view the parchment through the U&T.

Either that or he had the translation revealed to him, which is what I vaguely recall being told at some point in the distant past (how's that for authority?)

[pelagius]

Originally Posted by creekster

Either that or he had the translation revealed to him, which is what I vaguely recall being told at some point in the distant past (how's that for authority?)

Creekster, this is what the Doctrine & Covenants new testament manual says about the section:

The future of the Apostle John, sometimes called “the Beloved” or “the Revelator,” is a mystery to the world. Confusion comes because of the statement in John 21:20–23. Referring to John and speaking to Peter, the Savior said: “If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me. Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple [John] should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?”

From this statement questions naturally arise: Did John die? If not, what is his status? If he did, why did Jesus make the statement? The issue has been debated for centuries among the various Christian denominations, with some scholars saying that he indeed died and was buried at Ephesus, while others believe he still walks the earth. A third school of thought states that even though he was buried at Ephesus, he is not really dead but simply sleeps in the grave until the Second Coming of the Savior. (See Sperry, Compendium, pp. 66–67.)

Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery finally solved the issue through an appeal to the Lord. The Prophet Joseph Smith recorded: “During the month of April [1829, at Harmony, Pennsylvania,] I continued to translate, and he [Oliver Cowdery] to write, with little cessation, during which time we received several revelations. A difference of opinion arising between us about the account of John the Apostle, mentioned in the New Testament, as to whether he died or continued to live, we mutually agreed to settle it by the Urim and Thummim.” (History of the Church, 1:35–36.)

The result of their inquiry is given in the heading of section 7. It is not known whether Joseph saw the parchment referred to and was given power to translate it, or if its contents were revealed to Joseph without his seeing the original source. It makes no difference, since the material was given by revelation to the Prophet.

P.S.

Yes, I agree with CHC's reading of John 21 (not that I have a solution and 3 Nephi 28:6-7 only makes it messier in terms of reconciling that reading as Mormons).

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by pelagius

Creekster, this is what the Doctrine & Covenants new testament manual says about the section:




P.S.

Yes, I agree with CHC's reading of John 21 (not that I have a solution and 3 Nephi 28:6-7 only makes it messier in terms of reconciling that reading as Mormons).

I guess it depends on what is meant by "death"

Originally Posted by 3 Nephi 28:8

And ye shall never endure the pains of death; but when I shall come in my glory ye shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye from mortality to immortality; and then shall ye be blessed in the kingdom of my Father.

[pelagius]

Okay, here is my two cents. Suppose the D&C and the Book of Mormon said nothing about the death of John or John at all. Doesn't it seem like the most natural reading of John 21:22-24 is that rumors had spread that Jesus had promised John that he would not die, but then in fact John did die? This was problematic (because of the rumors or misreading or mis-remembering of what Jesus said) so the Johannine community inserted a narrative comment (into their community's gospel) pointing out that Jesus never really said that John would never die and consequently it is not a big deal that John is now dead?

That's basically how I read the passage without regard to the D&C and Book of Mormon (this is also what I think CHC was pointing out as well so hopefully I didn't misrepresent him by agreeing with him). However, I do agree that the D&C and Book of Mormon passages contradict what I perceive as the natural reading of John 21:22-24. Thus it strikes me that the interpretations given by Tex, Indy, and others are good and appropriate attempts to harmonize the three sources while favoring the modern sources. I think that makes sense for most Mormons given that the "standard" hermeneutic privileges the Book of Mormon and D&C sources.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by Chapel-Hill-Coug

I've always found this section curious, given that in John 21:22-24, the author implies both that John did die and that rumors regarding him never dying were false. His community, who is responsible for chapter 21 of John, seems to have known that he died.

I'm having a hard time seeing how you can interpret it that way.

[Chapel-Hill-Coug]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

I'm having a hard time seeing how you can interpret it that way.

Almost everyone interprets it this way. Even the info from the D&C manual suggested a tension, though of course it sees section 7 as a resolution to disparate traditions.

[Sleeping in EQ]

Originally Posted by Chapel-Hill-Coug

I've always found this section curious, given that in John 21:22-24, the author implies both that John did die and that rumors regarding him never dying were false. His community, who is responsible for chapter 21 of John, seems to have known that he died.

My thoughts exactly. D&C 7 is a real curiosity. Does anybody know if any Church scholars or leaders have tried to take this on?