05-11-2007, 09:45 PM | #131 | |
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So there is no evidence of a desire to change and there is evidence of support for racists policies makes an argument that they didn't seem concerned about it. More importantly, some, not all continued to make weak arguments supporting the ban. I'm more comfortable that my assertion is correct. DoM was a godsend and SWK corrected a grevious error.
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05-11-2007, 09:57 PM | #132 | |||
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05-11-2007, 09:59 PM | #133 | |
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If I recall correctly, someone made the comment about how do we know that no other prophets from BY to SWK also inquired about blacks and the priesthood. Archaea said that he has read a lot about the subject, and about other prophets, and has seen no evidence that they inquired. Therefore the premise is that because there is no evidence that they did so, it is a reasonable assumption that they did not. (This is also consistent with the evidence of racist tendencies of most Utahns at that time). You then asked Archaea to affirmatively prove the absence of any inquiry, stating that because he cannot do so, he cannot support his claim. You clearly are not a first-semester logic student. The logical fallacy belongs to you.
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Get your stinking paws off me, you damned, dirty Yewt! "Now perhaps as I spanked myself screaming out "Kozlowski, say it like you mean it bitch!" might have been out of line, but such was the mood." - Goatnapper "If you want to fatten a pig up to make the pig MORE delicious, you can feed it almost anything. Seriously. The pig is like the car on Back to the Future. You put in garbage, and out comes something magical!" - Cali Coug Last edited by SoCalCoug; 05-11-2007 at 10:02 PM. |
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05-11-2007, 10:02 PM | #134 |
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Well, there's more to it that Jeff didn't mention. Ralph Bunche was visiting Utah on a speaking tour. He requested permission to stay at the Hotel Utah. McKay was asked to decide if this should be allowed as it was against the Hotel's policy. McKay reached the decision that this would be acceptable as long as Dr. Bunche took his meals in his room and not downstairs with the white guests. It is at the very least a revealing look at McKay's view of race in the 50's.
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05-11-2007, 10:03 PM | #135 | |
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We were illustrating the general climate. It is anecdotal, but it supports our argument.
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05-11-2007, 10:31 PM | #136 | ||
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You are correct. I took two semesters. Quote:
It's reaching. |
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05-11-2007, 10:39 PM | #137 |
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I think you are well aware of the point we were making.
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05-11-2007, 11:03 PM | #138 |
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I'll tell you what I'm aware of. (That's my lead in to my grand summary before I take off for the weekend ... then you'll be free of my drivel for a while and can slander me (or is it libel?) in peace. )
1. You (not Lebowski specifically, but a group YOU) reject the premise that the priesthood ban could be based in anything other than racism because some of the men who supported/instituted it held racist views. This, despite the fact that God knew the hearts of the men he selected to lead his church before they were born, much less before they harbored any racist views. 2. You therefore reject the idea that God could be racist, despite interesting though imperfect parallels throughout the Bible. Rather than answering those parallels directly, you either claim those passages of the Bible are flawed, or just do some good old-fashioned name-calling. 3. Since God is not a racist, and yet his church embraced a racist policy, you must necessarily create some other divine conclusion as to why it was permitted to exist. Perhaps God didn't care? Perhaps God was waiting around for the right prophet or the right mood among his people? Perhaps God actually told his prophet to change it, but the prophet didn't listen? You suggest all these, but can substantiate none of it by scripture. 3. You deduce therefrom that the ban must have been because of individual prophetic racism. Some of you even postulate that the short lives of some of the prophets might be indication that God was displeased with their racist attitudes. 4. Or, if it's too uncomfortable to call 11 of 15 latter day prophets racists, you assert that the church wasn't ready to follow the prophet down a color-neutral priesthood path. Maybe the prophets weren't racists, you think. It was just the body of the church who would not be ready to follow the prophet. This, despite the fact that they seemed to be willing to follow the prophet anywhere else. 5. Either way, you decide that even if they weren't overt racists, they were certainly complacent enough to not even bother the Lord about the issue. This, despite citing how difficult and how ridiculous the program appeared to be to administrate. 6. Lastly, you assume that anyone who disagrees with any of the above points must necessarily be a closet racist. I not only find this unpersuasive, but I find it entirely unsupported by scripture or tradition. In fact, your whole scenario reflects poorly on everyone: on the prophets for either advocating or not ending it, on the membership for being unwilling to accept it, and on God for allowing it all to happen in the first place. The only people who it doesn't reflect poorly on, funny enough, is you. You, of course, are enlightened folk who are naturally not racists yourselves. Together, unracist you and unracist God are a team that can point out all the racism in everyone else. That's what I'm aware of. It's an interesting path to walk down, and of course, all of you are welcome to it. Cheers, and have a wonderful non-racist weekend! Last edited by Tex; 05-11-2007 at 11:07 PM. |
05-11-2007, 11:33 PM | #139 | |
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I think the membership would have followed McKay had he made the decision to drop the ban. But McKay and the brethren had to get there in their own time. God allows his leaders to get things right in their own time. History is full of examples showing that this is the norm and not the exception. Oh, and as an aside, I'd like to go on record stating that I don't believe that Tex or Indy are racists. Nor do I believe that somebody who takes their position is necessarily racist. I do however think that it takes a considerable amount of imagination and denial to ignore the piles of evidence available regarding the blacks and the priesthood issue and decide that the ban was that God intended all along. Last edited by SteelBlue; 05-11-2007 at 11:37 PM. |
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05-11-2007, 11:41 PM | #140 | |
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