01-24-2008, 05:26 PM | #21 |
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Probably, Jay. When I say prevenient grace I mean something like the following: Prior to any act of human agency, grace which moves the human will to have faith or to be capable of having faith.
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01-24-2008, 05:32 PM | #22 |
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I think we should dub this the Santos Test in all future conversations.
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01-24-2008, 05:34 PM | #23 | |
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01-24-2008, 06:11 PM | #24 | ||
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This notion is also why I think it is inappropriate to call Mormonism "Pelagian" or "Semi-Pelagian" (despite my sympathy). To be sure, this passage points out some overlap but Pelagius didn't believe (as far as I know) that we are "free" (from the effects of the fall) by grace and grace alone. Last edited by pelagius; 01-25-2008 at 04:25 AM. |
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01-26-2008, 06:29 AM | #25 |
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Like I said, "Even with Mormonism's doctrine of necessary gracious opportunity and necessary gracious assistance, it is still a relentless merit system."
Gracious assistance via prevenient grace doesn't get Mormonism off the hook for being a system that requires one prove their own personal moral worthiness as a prerequisite for receiving eternal life. Also, notice that one of my quotes was from the very last General Conference. But hey, quoting Mormon leaders to Mormons can be pretty offensive :-) |
01-26-2008, 06:39 AM | #26 | |
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01-26-2008, 04:30 PM | #27 | |
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You've oversimplified it as usual, but your perspective can be made look silly as well. Jeez, just believe and you're saved. That sounds stupid. Whatever the roles of grace and works in the hereafter, I'm certain God desires people to work and to good things. What actually mechanics gest us there is probably irrelevant. Mormons are industrious. Can you say that of evangelicals? That's not the reputation of evangelicals.
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01-26-2008, 06:04 PM | #28 |
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From the point of view of the individual, salvation is either due to something they say/think/do, or it is not. If it is not, then, from that individual's view point, it is arbitrary. To the degree that it is due to something within the individual's power is indicative of some degree of salvation by works.
It seems the general evangelical view, at least from the limited non-argumentative discussions I've had with friends/acquaintances who are evangelical, is the latter. This seems to makes God capricious and arbitrary - not a God I'm particularly desirous to worship. As Woot said, at least mormon cosmology is pretty internally consistent. The evangelical cosmology makes my head swim. |
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