06-03-2008, 09:30 PM | #91 |
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As UD, and Arch and tooblue and still others have pointed out, the key here isn't the factual witness but the spiritual witness. Even with the plates in hand it might be like reading a Mayan codex but it will still not be true in a meaningful way to him or anyone (sorry if my deep emotional attachment to SU is showing again).
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06-03-2008, 10:14 PM | #92 | |
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Look at the discussions we have about Blacks and the Preisthood, Joseph Smith's practice of Polygamy, The Lost pages of the Book of Mormon etc... Every time something comes up where someone might say, "ah ha! now you must conceed that your church isn't true." We shift the focus to matters of spiritual witness which, in the end, is all that matters. The less focus one's testimony has on factual evidence, the better! |
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06-03-2008, 11:40 PM | #93 | |
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When's the last time you heard someone say, "I believe the teachings of the LDS church are divinely inspired."? Probably never. You hear people saying "I testify," or "I know the church is true." As if they had facts. In the Deseret News, on Friday August 6, 2004, on page B-3, an article written by Lynn Arave about "FAIR" cited the example of Alex Boye, a black member of the LDS church. Arave wrote, "Boye said to him the LDS Church has been more about principles that help keep him morally clean, rather than about facts and scriptures." This quote amazed me so much I cut it out and put it in a notebook. We're a church of feelings - not of fact, rational thought, or inquiry. This is an enormous departure from the organization Joseph Smith set up.
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06-04-2008, 12:06 AM | #94 | |
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When I bear testimony of the veracity of the Book of Mormon, it is, in part, due to thoughtful prayer and consideration I gave it some years ago. I know the Joseph Smith story. I've read the testimonies of the three witnessess, I believe them to be true. As such, I have a testimony that they are true...and yet I've never held gold plates, I've never seen God or Jesus Christ, and I've never had any number of the experiences he did...yet I believe. Modern day testimony is based on the idea that these events were facts in Joseph Smith's life. He experienced them, he showed the plates to other witnesses. As a believer, I have to trust that what he says and what they say are true. But if someone were to ask me for proof or evidence, I could not provide it...and neither could anyone else. My point was simply that when coming to a testimony, if we base it soley on facts (i.e. proof that these people existed, a tangible item, or even DNA) then we are skipping an essential part of having a testimony in the first place; Faith. |
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06-04-2008, 12:27 AM | #95 | |
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I've never heard a Catholic say, "I know the Catholic church is true." It doesn't make sense. Other Christian religions don't have to go out on this limb. All they say is "I believe Jesus died for my sins" or similar, and that's good enough. Mormons think they have a monopoly on truth, and they've put their eggs into that basket with the whole "If Joseph Smith is false, the whole shebang is false" mentality. Nobody is all true or all false. It's a precarious position, to claim to "know" things that we just believe very strongly. So, we end up with fiascos like Ferguson's digs in Mexico, or the pictures of Maya buildings at the beginning of the Book of Mormon. As SIEQ notes above, the church powers-that-be might be shifting away from these bold claims, but it's going to take awhile, and it will never go away as long as we continue to employ the rhetoric of fact in a discussion on faith.
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06-04-2008, 04:49 AM | #96 | |
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I'll give the Book of Mormon this much: It's a roughly 170-year-old artifact. That's all we have. It gave rise to the LDS movement and that deserves a lot of consideration. But there's nothing to talk about before some 170 years ago, and anything more is just a hustle. Prove me wrong. I also concede this much: Like Sterling McMurrin I don't believe the world works in the way Joseph described, heavenly visitors and gold books, etc. I will concede this much: I've finally found an honest apologist. Indy: "You asked for a mustard seed and I gave you one. What's your problem?" LOL.
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06-04-2008, 04:50 AM | #97 | |
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Interrupt all you like. We're involved in a complicated story here, and not everything is quite what it seems to be. —Paul Auster |
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06-04-2008, 06:30 AM | #98 | |
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a carving like your avatar with the detail of Lehi's dream? How about fair skin indigineous people? Some ancient hebrew inscribed on a wall? you seeing the golden plates?
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06-04-2008, 02:15 PM | #99 |
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I concur.
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06-04-2008, 02:24 PM | #100 |
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I merely supplied a handful of examples to show there is strong circumstantial evidence that there were ancient ties between the Middle East and South/Central America. I didn't explicitly try to tie it to anything specific in the Book of Mormon. I'm not sure how much apologism that amounts to.
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