You enlightened few who realize prophets and apostles are not infallible,

[CardiacCoug]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

source? are you saying that cardiologists disregard the design flaws demonstrated in the old studies, where people who had quit drinking were counted as abstainers?

I would say most cardiologists consider the observational data (obviously not randomized, prospective studies) supporting the benefits of moderate alcohol consumption in preventing coronary artery disease to be fairly convincing.

I agree with you that there is a ton of bias and multiple confounding factors associated with those studies, though. People who drink moderately, especially those that drink wine, are self-selected to be healthier and to have superior socioeconomic profiles that cannot be adequately adjusted for no matter how hard people try.

I was mostly just egging on SU with my post, although the idea that alcohol may protect against coronary artery disease doesn't bother me at all.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by CardiacCoug

I would say most cardiologists consider the observational data (obviously not randomized, prospective studies) supporting the benefits of moderate alcohol consumption in preventing coronary artery disease to be fairly convincing.

I agree with you that there is a ton of bias and multiple confounding factors associated with those studies, though. People who drink moderately, especially those that drink wine, are self-selected to be healthier and to have superior socioeconomic profiles that cannot be adequately adjusted for no matter how hard people try.

I was mostly just egging on SU with my post, although the idea that alcohol may protect against coronary artery disease doesn't bother me at all.

I take it this is your field.

It's not mine but I think mostly that moderate wine consupmtion doesn't hurt you.

[CardiacCoug]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

I take it this is your field.

It's not mine but I think mostly that moderate wine consupmtion doesn't hurt you.

Nope, there are no proven negative effects from moderate wine consumption -- probably a few health benefits but that is not definitively proven.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by CardiacCoug

Nope, there are no proven negative effects from moderate wine consumption -- probably a few health benefits but that is not definitively proven.

My doctor said the rule is you can't drink more than your doc. He said I'm well within the range.

[il Padrino Ute]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

My doctor said the rule is you can't drink more than your doc. He said I'm well within the range.

What if your doctor is a drunk?

[creekster]

Originally Posted by CardiacCoug

I would say most cardiologists consider the observational data (obviously not randomized, prospective studies) supporting the benefits of moderate alcohol consumption in preventing coronary artery disease to be fairly convincing.

I agree with you that there is a ton of bias and multiple confounding factors associated with those studies, though. People who drink moderately, especially those that drink wine, are self-selected to be healthier and to have superior socioeconomic profiles that cannot be adequately adjusted for no matter how hard people try.

I was mostly just egging on SU with my post, although the idea that alcohol may protect against coronary artery disease doesn't bother me at all.

observational = anecdotal?

[TripletDaddy]

I am completely with SU on this one. I wish we were given a green light on wine.

I read Spectator casually. I am sort of a phony closet oenophile, at least amongst the Mormon ranks. I was taught by a superior of mine at work who is a fairly hard-core wine collector (several thousand bottles in his cellar).....he taught me about soils, different regions around the globe, woods, wine caves, barrels, you name it. I actually think it is a fascinating science.

We were capping off a large project (over a year long venture) in the Bay Area and treked up to Yountville to eat at the French Laundry to celebrate (to this day, the best meal I have ever eaten). I told the Partner that I wanted to act as wine host--ridiculous given that I do not drink. Since he has been to the Laundry several times and it was only a few of us (no clients), he didn't care.

I did a pretty decent job....checked the label, made sure the vint was correct....I even made sure I didnt rook out and smell the cork. I did check to make sure the cork matched the label (I played it cool).

When the sommelier poured and let it decant, my time at the plate had arrived. I had to tell him that I do not drink. He gave me a weird look and then laughed a bit. It just is not common to have a non-drinker act as wine host. I don't think he cared too much because he busted out his tastevin and had a few tastes with my permission.

I have to admit, I was WAY tempted to try wine that night. I didn't. I am glad I didn't because I would have been too drunk to enjoy the marijuana later on....

[CardiacCoug]

Originally Posted by creekster

observational = anecdotal?

No, not anecdotal but basically a survey -- asking people how often they drink and whether or not they have or subsequently develop coronary artery disease. It's not the best evidence because association does not equal causation. For example, I'm sure people in Utah who drink coffee develop lung cancer at a higher rate than people who don't drink coffee -- that's because they also are more likely to smoke. Drinking coffee in Utah is associated with developing lung cancer but it's not the cause. That's the problem with observational studies.

The strongest level of evidence would be to randomly assign 1000 people to drink moderately and 1000 people to not drink at all and then follow them for decades for the development of coronary artery disease. With alcohol, for obvious reasons, people don't want to enroll in a study like that.

[ERCougar]

Originally Posted by CardiacCoug

I would say most cardiologists consider the observational data (obviously not randomized, prospective studies) supporting the benefits of moderate alcohol consumption in preventing coronary artery disease to be fairly convincing.

I agree with you that there is a ton of bias and multiple confounding factors associated with those studies, though. People who drink moderately, especially those that drink wine, are self-selected to be healthier and to have superior socioeconomic profiles that cannot be adequately adjusted for no matter how hard people try.

I was mostly just egging on SU with my post, although the idea that alcohol may protect against coronary artery disease doesn't bother me at all.

What do you think of the recent studies on the cardiovascular benefits of caffeine? I just read a summary in one of my throwaway journals but it was kind of interesting. If I recall correctly, 1-4 cups of coffee was found to increase survival, chiefly through the hypoglycemic effect leading to improved vascular health. I'll try to find a link.

[ERCougar]

Originally Posted by ERCougar

What do you think of the recent studies on the cardiovascular benefits of caffeine? I just read a summary in one of my throwaway journals but it was kind of interesting. If I recall correctly, 1-4 cups of coffee was found to increase survival, chiefly through the hypoglycemic effect leading to improved vascular health. I'll try to find a link.

Here's the link. Study was in AIM (respectable journal for you non-docs) and linked coffee with improved mortality. I was mistaken about the caffeine link--the link was actually independent of caffeine intake. All I've read is the abstract but you obviously have the same confounding factor issues that you find with all of these types of studies.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...ubmed_RVDocSum