Church makes gays and their children apostates - cougarguard.com — unofficial BYU Cougars / LDS sports, football, basketball forum and message board

ute4ever · 11-11-2015, 03:11 PM

I suppose you may read anything into my statements that you please, and alter what you feel they mean, as long as it makes you feel better about your position. And let's revisit that position: on this thread, where you're arguing that both good and bad will come from the new church policy change, you've taken offense at the idea that both good and bad came from a previous church policy change.

ute4ever · 11-11-2015, 04:29 PM

To clarify my position for anyone who may be confused. I agree with all of the following:

J. Reuben Clark, Jr.:
"Unless we enjoy the Spirit of God we cannot understand the things of God; in fact, the things of God will appear foolish to us."

Boyd K. Packer:
"There are three areas where members of the Church, influenced by social and political unrest, are being caught up and led away. ...The dangers I speak of come from the gay-lesbian movement, the feminist movement, ...and the ever-present challenge from the so-called scholars or intellectuals."

Lynn G. Robbins:
"Lowering the Lord's standards to the level of a society's inappropriate behavior is apostasy. The scornful often accuse prophets of not living in the 21st century or of being bigoted. They attempt to persuade or even pressure the Church into lowering God's standards to the level of their own inappropriate behavior, which in the words of Elder Neal A. Maxwell, will 'develop self-contentment instead of seeking self-improvement and repentance'."

Joseph Smith:
"Men who...have no desire for the principles of truth, do not understand the word of truth when they hear it. The devil taketh away the word of truth out of their hearts."

Harold B. Lee:
"There are those among us who would set themselves up as critics of the Church, saying that the Church has gone out of the way. ...We should warn these, as well as those who are in danger of being led astray, of what the Prophet predicted. He said, 'That man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying they are out of the way, while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly that that man is on the way to apostasy, and if he does not repent, he will apostatize, as God lives'."

Ezra Taft Benson:
"Suppose a leader of the Church were to tell you that you were supporting the wrong side of a particular issue. Some might immediately resist this leader and his counsel or ignore it, but I would suggest that you first apply the fourth great civic standard for the faithful Saints. That standard is to live for, to get, and then to follow the promptings of the Holy Spirit."

Neal A. Maxwell:
"Studying the Church through the eyes of its detractors is like interviewing Judas to understand Jesus."

Neal A. Maxwell:
"Satan need not get everyone to be like Cain or Judas, he needs only to get able men to see themselves as sophisticated neutrals."

M. Russell Ballard:
"Those who live according to Heavenly Father’s eternal plan will not want to absorb any information that is illicit or untoward, nor will they destroy their spiritual sensitivity through immoral acts or the consumption of any harmful substances. Neither will they search for doctrinal loopholes to find reasons to challenge the ordained leadership of the Church nor tamper with the simple truths of the gospel. They will not attempt to justify any lifestyle that is contrary to the plan of happiness."

Thomas S. Monson:
"Every day is a day of decision, and our decisions determine our destiny."

MikeWaters · 11-11-2015, 04:37 PM

http://bycommonconsent.com/2015/11/1...me/#more-60474

MikeWaters · 11-11-2015, 04:42 PM

By the way, I told my wife about this thread and she was shocked. Shocked that there was someone besides me posting on CG.

Archaea · 11-11-2015, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

By the way, I told my wife about this thread and she was shocked. Shocked that there was someone besides me posting on CG.

Well, she didn't miss the mark by much.

ute4ever · 11-11-2015, 07:31 PM

Honestly, when I realize that the reader is also put off by members of the First Presidency, the Quorum of the Apostles, and past leaders of the church, I don't feel insulted by the remark. Either you have faith in the prophet or you don't. It really is as simple as that. And there must be opposition in all things. So with every change in policy or every new move, there will be good for some and bad for others that accompanies it. When a person wants to know why a certain thing happened, he can inquire one of two ways: ask in faith like Nephi, truly believing, and seeking the wisdom of the decision, or he can ask in a murmuring tone like Laman and Lemuel, who said "The Lord makes no such thing known unto us." In the first Devotional of the current school year, BYU President Worthlin pointed out that Laman and Lemuel were probably active members of the church, but simply riding their father's coat tails and being present in body only, did very little for them.

MikeWaters · 11-11-2015, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ute4ever

Honestly, when I realize that the reader is also put off by members of the First Presidency, the Quorum of the Apostles, and past leaders of the church, I don't feel insulted by the remark. Either you have faith in the prophet or you don't. It really is as simple as that. And there must be opposition in all things. So with every change in policy or every new move, there will be good for some and bad for others that accompanies it. When a person wants to know why a certain thing happened, he can inquire one of two ways: ask in faith like Nephi, truly believing, and seeking the wisdom of the decision, or he can ask in a murmuring tone like Laman and Lemuel, who said "The Lord makes no such thing known unto us." In the first Devotional of the current school year, BYU President Worthlin pointed out that Laman and Lemuel were probably active members of the church, but simply riding their father's coat tails and being present in body only, did very little for them.

Why is that I am pretty safe in saying that 99% of members don't expect the President of the church to address this issue in any kind of public give-and-take forum such as a televised interview or a press conference?

ute4ever · 11-11-2015, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Why is that I am pretty safe in saying that 99% of members don't expect the President of the church to address this issue in any kind of public give-and-take forum such as a televised interview or a press conference?

He already does. You know why prophets speak in parables, right? Start with his Sep 2014 Ensign First Presidency message.

MikeWaters · 11-11-2015, 07:57 PM

or do they speak in private handbooks?

ute4ever · 11-11-2015, 08:25 PM

Yesterday, weren't you the one who referenced the gifts of the Spirit? Conversion doesn't come press conferences or secret handbooks. The prophets have spoken on this issue plenty during general conference sessions and authorized lessons. Regardless, those are merely springboards for the listener to seek, ponder, study, pray, gain a personal witness, and answers to his questions. Don't be like the children of Israel, who were told they were wicked because they had to be commanded in all things.

11-11-2015, 03:11 PM	#1
ute4ever I must not tell lies Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 5,103	I suppose you may read anything into my statements that you please, and alter what you feel they mean, as long as it makes you feel better about your position. And let's revisit that position: on this thread, where you're arguing that both good and bad will come from the new church policy change, you've taken offense at the idea that both good and bad came from a previous church policy change.

11-11-2015, 04:29 PM	#2
ute4ever I must not tell lies Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 5,103	To clarify my position for anyone who may be confused. I agree with all of the following: J. Reuben Clark, Jr.: "Unless we enjoy the Spirit of God we cannot understand the things of God; in fact, the things of God will appear foolish to us." Boyd K. Packer: "There are three areas where members of the Church, influenced by social and political unrest, are being caught up and led away. ...The dangers I speak of come from the gay-lesbian movement, the feminist movement, ...and the ever-present challenge from the so-called scholars or intellectuals." Lynn G. Robbins: "Lowering the Lord's standards to the level of a society's inappropriate behavior is apostasy. The scornful often accuse prophets of not living in the 21st century or of being bigoted. They attempt to persuade or even pressure the Church into lowering God's standards to the level of their own inappropriate behavior, which in the words of Elder Neal A. Maxwell, will 'develop self-contentment instead of seeking self-improvement and repentance'." Joseph Smith: "Men who...have no desire for the principles of truth, do not understand the word of truth when they hear it. The devil taketh away the word of truth out of their hearts." Harold B. Lee: "There are those among us who would set themselves up as critics of the Church, saying that the Church has gone out of the way. ...We should warn these, as well as those who are in danger of being led astray, of what the Prophet predicted. He said, 'That man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying they are out of the way, while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly that that man is on the way to apostasy, and if he does not repent, he will apostatize, as God lives'." Ezra Taft Benson: "Suppose a leader of the Church were to tell you that you were supporting the wrong side of a particular issue. Some might immediately resist this leader and his counsel or ignore it, but I would suggest that you first apply the fourth great civic standard for the faithful Saints. That standard is to live for, to get, and then to follow the promptings of the Holy Spirit." Neal A. Maxwell: "Studying the Church through the eyes of its detractors is like interviewing Judas to understand Jesus." Neal A. Maxwell: "Satan need not get everyone to be like Cain or Judas, he needs only to get able men to see themselves as sophisticated neutrals." M. Russell Ballard: "Those who live according to Heavenly Father’s eternal plan will not want to absorb any information that is illicit or untoward, nor will they destroy their spiritual sensitivity through immoral acts or the consumption of any harmful substances. Neither will they search for doctrinal loopholes to find reasons to challenge the ordained leadership of the Church nor tamper with the simple truths of the gospel. They will not attempt to justify any lifestyle that is contrary to the plan of happiness." Thomas S. Monson: "Every day is a day of decision, and our decisions determine our destiny."

11-11-2015, 04:37 PM	#3
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	http://bycommonconsent.com/2015/11/1...me/#more-60474

11-11-2015, 04:42 PM	#4
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	By the way, I told my wife about this thread and she was shocked. Shocked that there was someone besides me posting on CG.

11-11-2015, 07:31 PM	#6
ute4ever I must not tell lies Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 5,103	Honestly, when I realize that the reader is also put off by members of the First Presidency, the Quorum of the Apostles, and past leaders of the church, I don't feel insulted by the remark. Either you have faith in the prophet or you don't. It really is as simple as that. And there must be opposition in all things. So with every change in policy or every new move, there will be good for some and bad for others that accompanies it. When a person wants to know why a certain thing happened, he can inquire one of two ways: ask in faith like Nephi, truly believing, and seeking the wisdom of the decision, or he can ask in a murmuring tone like Laman and Lemuel, who said "The Lord makes no such thing known unto us." In the first Devotional of the current school year, BYU President Worthlin pointed out that Laman and Lemuel were probably active members of the church, but simply riding their father's coat tails and being present in body only, did very little for them.

11-11-2015, 07:57 PM	#9
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	or do they speak in private handbooks?

11-11-2015, 08:25 PM	#10
ute4ever I must not tell lies Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 5,103	Yesterday, weren't you the one who referenced the gifts of the Spirit? Conversion doesn't come press conferences or secret handbooks. The prophets have spoken on this issue plenty during general conference sessions and authorized lessons. Regardless, those are merely springboards for the listener to seek, ponder, study, pray, gain a personal witness, and answers to his questions. Don't be like the children of Israel, who were told they were wicked because they had to be commanded in all things.