Excommunication

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by BlueK

So in my hypothetical what would you do? You wouldn't excommunicate. So do you disfellowship? Simply release the stake pres from his calling and nothing else?

I don't like anything about the church court system. I don't think it would hurt to completely blow it apart. Maybe keep a probation type thing where bishop releases someone from calling, takes away recommend, asks them not to speak in church, etc. Don't know. I just don't like the current system and don't see a need for it. If there is a role for excommunication it might be for severe apostates or those who are antagonistic towards the church and openly profess no intention to repent of serious sin.

Originally Posted by BlueK

I just don't see how you can take the position that our actions are done in a vacuum and don't affect other members on the road of spiritual progression. Seriously, the stake pres who really feels bad and wants to repent is going to be able to deal ok with being exed. He knows the implications of his actions. He can still come back. In fact, I have a former stake pres who got exed and did come back. However, I think giving the rest of the church the impression that it's no big deal to preach chastity and then break it in such a spectacular matter probably would do a lot more damage than excommunicating the stake pres.

Wife beaters generally don't get excommunicated. Does that tell the membership of the church it's no big deal to beat your wife? The church clearly defines sin to its members, there's no confusion. I don't see the church's role as the punisher of sin. Consequences for sin are serious and best when they occur naturally, i.e. guilt, sorrow, loss of trust, divorce, legal consequences, financial consequences, etc. I don't see punishment from the church as being beneficial. In fact I think it's detrimental. I think we as LDS see God as being a punishing God because we can't seperate what the dumb church does with how he is.

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

So every sinner is repentant? Don't you think a large number of the people that get excommunicated instead of disfellowshipped or something else are because they really aren't repentant, thus the excommunication?

Repentant is a word that can be loosely interpreted. My definition, are you repentant? "Yes". Others might be: I need to see evidence in these ten categories to prove to me that you're repentant.

Originally Posted by cougarobgon

Position of authority does not equate to proof of worthiness or righteousness or even superior knowledge or understanding of Gospel principles. There were far too many individuals I would have considered to be more worthy than me to serve as the ward's bishop and that many more knowledgeable about the gospel principles. Sometimes you are just the one standing in the back of the chapel or the last one in the room when you are spotted by the leader who extends the calling to you. At the time of my calling I was the assistant ward newsletter rep., and that was a token calling because my wife was the rep. But having accepted the responsibility of the calling, as many of attorneys would say, my liability (accountability) exposure increased. And as such, from now on my previous callings and experience will be considered if I am ever brought before a disciplinary council for a serious transgression.

Don't agree. And I think your last two sentences negate everything you said previously. It makes the rest sound like fake humility but the teeth is in how you feel about yourself above others in the last two sentences.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by jay santos

And I think your last two sentences negate everything you said previously. It makes the rest sound like fake humility but the teeth is in how you feel about yourself above others in the last two sentences.

So you don't believe that with added experience/understanding there comes additional responsibility/accountability? It's not a case of being "better" than anyone else, it's a case of being more accountable.

Does God appear and chew me out for 3 hours straight for not praying to Him like he did with the Brother of Jared?

Have you ever actually dealt with a church disciplinary council before, even indirectly?

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

So you don't believe that with added experience/understanding there comes additional responsibility/accountability? It's not a case of being "better" than anyone else, it's a case of being more accountable.

Does God appear and chew me out for 3 hours straight for not praying to Him like he did with the Brother of Jared?

Have you ever actually dealt with a church disciplinary council before, even indirectly?

I believe we will all be judged differently. But it doesn't go by how far you climb up the church ladder.

A former bishop could be allowed to go through a difficult period and experience especially difficult temptations, and therefore should be judged less harshly than average.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by jay santos

I believe we will all be judged differently. But it doesn't go by how far you climb up the church ladder.

A former bishop could be allowed to go through a difficult period and experience especially difficult temptations, and therefore should be judged less harshly than average.

It's not the ladder, it's how experienced you are in the Gospel.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by jay santos

Wife beaters generally don't get excommunicated.

I would love to see your empirical evidence for this. Do share.

Originally Posted by jay santos

Does that tell the membership of the church it's no big deal to beat your wife?

"Unfortunately a few of you may be married to men who are abusive. Some of them put on a fine face before the world during the day and come home in the evening, set aside their self-discipline, and on the slightest provocation fly into outbursts of anger.

No man who engages in such evil and unbecoming behavior is worthy of the priesthood of God. No man who so conducts himself is worthy of the privileges of the house of the Lord. I regret that there are some men undeserving of the love of their wives and children. There are children who fear their fathers, and wives who fear their husbands. If there be any such men within the hearing of my voice, as a servant of the Lord I rebuke you and call you to repentance. Discipline yourselves. Master your temper. Most of the things that make you angry are of very small consequence. And what a terrible price you are paying for your anger. Ask the Lord to forgive you. Ask your wife to forgive you. Apologize to your children."

- Hinckley, 1996

Originally Posted by jay santos

Repentant is a word that can be loosely interpreted. My definition, are you repentant? "Yes". Others might be: I need to see evidence in these ten categories to prove to me that you're repentant.

The Lord doesn't appear to interpret it loosely. He's quite clear: "By this ye may know if a man repenteth of his sins—behold, he will confess them and forsake them."

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by Tex

The Lord doesn't appear to interpret it loosely. He's quite clear: "By this ye may know if a man repenteth of his sins—behold, he will confess them and forsake them."

Your wife beating tangent was so ridiculous, I won't even respond.

But you're coming back to this?

Have you ever repeated the same sin more than once? You're an unrepentant sinner...

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by jay santos

Your wife beating tangent was so ridiculous, I won't even respond.

But you're coming back to this?

Have you ever repeated the same sin more than once? You're an unrepentant sinner...

Repentant is an attitude that is not completely bereft of a change in actions. Otherwise, it's nothing more than the 'sorrow of the damned' that Mormon saw as the Nephite nation dwindled in unbelief.

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/morm/2/13#13

[Tex]

Originally Posted by jay santos

Your wife beating tangent was so ridiculous, I won't even respond.

I'm merely responding in kind.

Originally Posted by jay santos

Have you ever repeated the same sin more than once? You're an unrepentant sinner...

Reconcile that with the scriptures.

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

Repentant is an attitude that is not completely bereft of a change in actions. Otherwise, it's nothing more than the 'sorrow of the damned' that Mormon saw as the Nephite nation dwindled in unbelief.

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/morm/2/13#13

Sorrow of the damned in this scripture is someone who is sorry because of the consequences they've created not sorry for their actions. That's not what I'm talking about. Th sorrow of the damned would answer the question, are you sorry for your sin or are you repentant? "no, I'm just pissed I'm experienceing consequences for my sin." I'm talking about someone who says "yes" whether or not a hardass like Tex would look through them and judge them and say "no you're not, I don't think you're acting sorry enough".

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by Tex

Reconcile that with the scriptures.

we are all sinners =>
penitent sinners confess and forsake =>
forsake means to not commit again =>
if you commit a sin after attempting to repent, you are an unrepentant sinner

So, Tex is an unrepentant sinner. Correct? Or are you implying you've never recommitted the same sin after attempting to repent.