Did This SP Go Too Far?

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by BYU71

I bought into a lot of things. I grew up in a very orthodox environment. McKonkie was not questioned about anything he said in my time. People were excommunicated and publicly trot out in front of the Priesthood body and we were asked to love the person back into the church. I beleived the prophets were infallible. If they said the marriages were for purely humanitarian reasons, I believed them.

I have had talks with my parents about some of my beliefs as a kid and into my twenties. My folks on some of them would laugh and say, where did you ever get that. Uh, like somethings in the church, things are taught that most or a lot of people don't believe. As a kid, I thought since they taught them, they believed them.

So you really like your avatar for her smile?

[BYU71]

Originally Posted by Archaea

So you really like your avatar for her smile?

LOL, I do think she has a great smile, but that certainly doesn't tell the whole truth as to why I like her.

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by Archaea

Now friend, as a man, you bought into the "I'm only having sex with multiple women because I'm forced to" angle? Maybe as an eight year old without a knowledge of sex, but how could any grown man, buy into that line?

I think the standard belief in the church is that JS's polygamous marriages were nonsexual. Not sure why, but that was the understanding I had. Ditto wife and others I've had chance to discuss with like siblings and close friends. Most people in the church even intelligent and educated, if you've lived reasonably isolated from anti-Mormons, don't have occasion to discover or even question some of these issues. I came to understand most of these things slowly in late 20's/early 30's--which seems fairly typical. There are still things I'm learning. Some seem troubling at first, but then when you think through them thoroughly, none of them are. But may require a tweak in what were core elements of your testimony that now become optional elements.

[BYU71]

Originally Posted by jay santos

I think the standard belief in the church is that JS's polygamous marriages were nonsexual. Not sure why, but that was the understanding I had. Ditto wife and others I've had chance to discuss with like siblings and close friends. Most people in the church even intelligent and educated, if you've lived reasonably isolated from anti-Mormons, don't have occasion to discover or even question some of these issues. I came to understand most of these things slowly in late 20's/early 30's--which seems fairly typical. There are still things I'm learning. Some seem troubling at first, but then when you think through them thoroughly, none of them are. But may require a tweak in what were core elements of your testimony that now become optional elements.

I think as youngsters we get the sanitized version of things.

It is a concept that follows through elsewhere.

Take CB for instance. I think that Jefe wants to present his version of how mormons are or should be. His board and in some ways the sanitized version is nice. Nothing shocking goes on or is allowed to go. The board in some ways models itself after BYU. Again nothing wrong.

However, people shouldn't be too offended when others think there is brainwashing that goes on.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by marsupial

That was what I was taught too. Now I know that Joseph used his authority to get women to go to bed with him. It bothers me a lot. I'm not leaving the church or anything, because I guess as Sooner says, I like Mormon-flavored ice cream.

I have a hunch that someday the line to apologize to Joseph Smith and other prophets is going to be a very long one.

[jay santos]

Adam, I enjoy your posts and agree with you on some points, including some points you make on church honesty. But this is probably the most retarded thing I've read on this site this week.

Originally Posted by Adam

This was first apparant to me as I read the Autobio of PPP. In one scene he pretends to be a anti-mormon drunk to fool a mob searching for him. He tells the story of how he fooled them. Then he goes on and on justifying the lie because David did the same thing when hiding from Saul. In the end he was shot by a mob (about 8 years later IIRC) anyway. Were the 8 years worth the lie? They wouldn't be worth it to me.

[marsupial]

Originally Posted by Tex

I have a hunch that someday the line to apologize to Joseph Smith and other prophets is going to be a very long one.

What is that supposed to mean?

[BYU71]

Originally Posted by Adam

No story.

I am a deeply faithful Latter-day Saint. I could never deny it is based on truth--the Book of Mormon was revealed by heavenly means and priesthood keys were restored and Joseph died faithful to his calling.

Culturally I am a Mormon through and through active in every meaning of the word. I am desended from Willard Richards and all pioneer stock via my mother's side. Dad's dad was a WWII era convert.

I have read and know much about church history. I have read the standard works more often then I have read history. I believe I understand the doctrines of the gospel deeply and fully enough to know there is much left to be learned/remembered in the next phase.

Honesty is a primary value to me. I tend to be a mullah on the honesty issue.

There is a huge disconnect between the Church and its leader's practices and the honesty value I hold dear.

This was first apparant to me as I read the Autobio of PPP. In one scene he pretends to be a anti-mormon drunk to fool a mob searching for him. He tells the story of how he fooled them. Then he goes on and on justifying the lie because David did the same thing when hiding from Saul. In the end he was shot by a mob (about 8 years later IIRC) anyway. Were the 8 years worth the lie? They wouldn't be worth it to me.

But PPP's attitude was adopted by the Church--especially when it came to polygamy. But it didn't end there.

I believe that lying is now inbred into Mormon culture. Someone confesses a sin and is released from a calling, but some lie is put out and countenanced by the bishopric to save face. A movie is made about JS's last years and they ignore the "new and everlasting covenant of marriage" which was unquestionably the focus of the last years of JS's life. The gift of tounges is taught is the subject in sunday school, but the discussion centers around how fast missionaries learn languages for the whole hour. Mission presidents blame the fact that 40% of missionaries are wankers for having only 2 baptisms a month. And on and on and on and on.

I don't think God is pleased with our lying to ourselves and each other. I don't think it is helping with the three missions of the church. I think it is a cancer left over from lying about plural marriage that has yet to be cut out.

So I aim to make sure those in my sphere aren't afraid of the truth, get the truth in an honest way, and understand how the truth is still compatible with a testimony of JS and the modern church.

My other gospel hobby is God's mercy ala DC 19 and 29 and 76--the least understood doctrine in the church IMHO. But that is another discussion for another day.

We are alike in one way. Hypocricy is at the top of my hit parade of things I don't like. BYU is an awesome place with great students and great people. However, it often wreaks with hypocricy.

Maybe that is just the way it has to be because we are dealing with humans and human nature. It doesn't mean I have to like it though.

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by BYU71

However, people shouldn't be too offended when others think there is brainwashing that goes on.

Off topic, but that's the heart of why I was sent to roam the eternities with Cain and David. Censorship is something I get passionate about, and I would was getting so many posts censored and deleted it evolved to a point where I and Jefe/CB mod's could not abide each other. And this was mostly about Crowton. Though it probably got most heated when it was about Honor Code, racism, BYU admin/BOT.

[UtahDan]

Originally Posted by marsupial

What is that supposed to mean?

It means he's better than you are. Don't worry, THAT is a truly long line.