Modern day apostacy - how would we know?

[UtahDan]

Originally Posted by BYU71

I can buy everythng you just said. Perhaps we have gone astray and perhaps we are the most righteous in history. Arguments could be made either way and I doubt a person on either side of the argument is more in tune or out of tune.

Perhaps two hundred years from now Saints will be asking how come we don't have miracles like TV, the internet, BYU football and all those miracles the saints in the late 1900's and early 2000's got. Are we not as righteous as they were.

Just for the record, I don't necessarily buy that we have gone astray. I'm just amazed that some don't consider it possible.

[Spaz]

Originally Posted by UtahDan

The responses to this, however, don't even seem to admit this possibility. If someone had said "and therefore the church isn't true" I could understand why many would say "that isn't one of the possibilities in my mind." But that isn't what is being said. That some would, at least apparently, say that it is not possible that we are under condemnation or that we need to be more righteous shows me that they are committed to a world view were all is well and right rather than being committed to any particular ideology or teaching.

We can, absolutely, do better at living the gospel.


I think, to most of us, the thing that is irritating about Adam's posts is the arrogance to assume that the events we all consider to be miracles are not, and to marginalize the experiences that we've had.

In other words, how can we, who believe we've witnessed miracles, believe that we're under "condemnation", when we've witnessed those miracles?

[BYU71]

Originally Posted by UtahDan

Just for the record, I don't necessarily buy that we have gone astray. I'm just amazed that some don't consider it possible.

Just for the record, that is why I said I agreed with your post. I didn't think you were coming down on one side of the debate or the other.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by UtahDan

Just for the record, I don't necessarily buy that we have gone astray. I'm just amazed that some don't consider it possible.

I have no idea how "astray" we are compared to the Kirtland or Nauvoo saints who turned against Joseph Smith on a daily basis; yet there were plenty of miracles then.

My basic premise is that if the leaders of the church are restrained from performing mighty miracles due to the membership at large having gone astray, then they need to be more blunt about it in General Conference, other publications and through the local leadership. In this regard, the silence is almost deafening.

It is beyond obvious that collectively the church could do better, but I'm not sure we're any more astray than saints in times past where "Red Sea miracles" occurred.

[BYU71]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

I have no idea how "astray" we are compared to the Kirtland or Nauvoo saints who turned against Joseph Smith on a daily basis; yet there were plenty of miracles then.

My basic premise is that if the leaders of the church are restrained from performing mighty miracles due to the membership at large having gone astray, then they need to be more blunt about it in General Conference, other publications and through the local leadership. In this regard, the silence is almost deafening.

It is beyond obvious that collectively the church could do better, but I'm not sure we're any more astray than saints in times past where "Red Sea miracles" occurred.

I would hate to hear the brethern talk about the membership having gone astray and thus no miracles. The "white shirt" brigade would be out in mass. If you think there are some members looking down their noses at others now, can you imagine how it would be if something like that was said.

At least we would know why BYU isn't winning BCS championships every year.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by BYU71

I would hate to hear the brethern talk about the membership having gone astray and thus no miracles. The "white shirt" brigade would be out in mass. If you think there are some members looking down their noses at others now, can you imagine how it would be if something like that was said.

Don't you think they have an obligation to give us a "State of the Church" address, if things where that bad?

[TripletDaddy]

Originally Posted by UtahDan

Just for the record, I don't necessarily buy that we have gone astray. I'm just amazed that some don't consider it possible.

Who has suggested that it is not possible? I may have missed that.

[BYU71]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

Don't you think they have an obligation to give us a "State of the Church" address, if things where that bad?

That is a good point. I should be happy to know that most of the church isn't in the "white shirt" camp and yet the "State of the Church" is OK.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

Don't you think they have an obligation to give us a "State of the Church" address, if things where that bad?

Frankly, I don't know what their duties are in that regard, but if they believed we were direly in need of correction, one of the chief duties of a prophet is to call people to repentance.

OTOH, perhaps they believe there are more effective means of correcting. I can make arguments going in all directions.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by UtahDan

The thing I think is so interesting about this thread is that neither Adam, nor I nor anyone else has remotely insinuated that the paucity of miracles is evidence that the church isn't true or that the power to perform miracles doesn't exist within the church. Rather, the idea that is at least being talked about is that perhaps we are under some condemnation as a people and need to live the gospel better to have that condemnation removed.

It depends what you mean by "the church isn't true" (a loaded term if there ever was one). Take a look at the title of the thread. And go back and look at Adam's first few posts. He is citing the perceived lack of real miracles as evidence of apostasy:

There is a scriptural test for whether a community of saints have lost their way.

Originally Posted by UtahDan

The responses to this, however, don't even seem to admit this possibility. If someone had said "and therefore the church isn't true" I could understand why many would say "that isn't one of the possibilities in my mind." But that isn't what is being said. That some would, at least apparently, say that it is not possible that we are under condemnation or that we need to be more righteous shows me that they are committed to a world view were all is well and right rather than being committed to any particular ideology or teaching.

I think I have said that Adam has been a bit off the deep end on somethings lately, but in this case it seems to to me that he is doing no more than likening the scriptures to himself which is what we are taught to do. This brings the charge of a vain love affair with intellect. This seems to make his point that for some that anything they haven't heard over the pulpit cannot be.

So at the end of the day, the answer to the question for many is that the question is moot. You can't ask whether we have gone astray at all because it isn't possible. I wonder if there were Nephites and Lamanites who thought the same thing.

I think my posting record shows that I am anything but an apologist. And I don't have a problem at all with the question at hand (what defines apostacy?, what are the indicators of apostacy?). What I have a problem with is the application of such an overly simplistic metric to make that evaluation. I also believe that the definition of miracles is so subjective that to claim that there are no "real" miracles in modern times is a fundamentally arrogant and ultimately indefensible position.