I was sort of baffled by the black guy that quoted John Taylor

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Black Diamond Bay

Maybe God didn't intervene sooner because the white members of the church were not ready?

Certainly a plausible possibility. Or, perhaps the blacks of the United States were not ready. Or, the continent of Africa. Or ... or ...

All these options are more plausible, in my mind, that mere bigotry on the part of the men selected by guide to be his mouthpiece for his newly restored church.

Originally Posted by SteelBlue

Sure looks to me like once they got around to asking (which coincided with demand relatively) they got their answer. The two who weren't interested in asking had two of the shortest tenures in the modern day church. I'm not saying that's why, but it makes one wonder.

LOL. You know, over in the political threads I like to joke about the Left's problems with Blame America First syndrome.

I think I will name this Blame the Prophets First syndrome. Its rules are these:

1. Any positive policy adjustment made over the course of time MUST necessarily reflect poorly on the character of all previous prophets who supported the old policy.

2. Any prophet who dies does so under punishment from God for their sinful, wicked ways.

I wonder what God killed Howard Hunter over...

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

Was that a prediction or an oath?

Seemed a lot more like an oath from what I recall reading. Especially given the fact that he chewed out the BYU president one time for allowing some black men to enroll. He said that if one ended up dating his daughter (granddaughter?) there would be hell to pay.

[SteelBlue]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

Was that a prediction or an oath?

Does it matter?

[SteelBlue]

Originally Posted by Tex

LOL. You know, over in the political threads I like to joke about the Left's problems with Blame America First syndrome.

I think I will name this Blame the Prophets First syndrome. Its rules are these:

1. Any positive policy adjustment made over the course of time MUST necessarily reflect poorly on the character of all previous prophets who supported the old policy.

2. Any prophet who dies does so under punishment from God for their sinful, wicked ways.

I wonder what God killed Howard Hunter over...

If you are more comfortable believing that God withheld his priesthood based on skin color then that's fine. I am more comfortable believing that it was a mistaken policy that was corrected when it became relevant.

I don't believe Smith and Lee were taken from the earth for their stances. I just said it makes one wonder.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by SteelBlue

If you are more comfortable believing that God withheld his priesthood based on skin color then that's fine. I am more comfortable believing that it was a mistaken policy that was corrected when it became relevant.

I don't believe Smith and Lee were taken from the earth for their stances. I just said it makes one wonder.

I am more comfortable believing that I don't know, and that God does. End of story.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by SteelBlue

Does it matter?

Hell yes, it matters. The prediction could be based on having asked God one or more times and being told "no". An oath would be an autonomous "not over my dead body" type of declaration.

I think there's a slight difference between the two.

[SteelBlue]

Originally Posted by Tex

I am more comfortable believing that I don't know, and that God does. End of story.

Oh, I'm pretty sure you think you know.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by Tex

I wonder what God killed Howard Hunter over...

It was payback for that time when he fell over backwards during a General Conference talk and disturbed the gentle reverence of the session.

[Taq Man]

Originally Posted by SteelBlue

If you are more comfortable believing that God withheld his priesthood based on skin color then that's fine. I am more comfortable believing that it was a mistaken policy that was corrected when it became relevant.

I don't believe Smith and Lee were taken from the earth for their stances. I just said it makes one wonder.

If you take the stance of a mistaken policy was carried through the church through 11 prophets how then do you square that with the belief that a prophet cannot lead the church astray?

It was either God's intent to deny blacks the priesthood until SWK or prophets can indeed lead the church very far astray.

[All-American]

Most of this is a repost, but it has a lot to do with the present topic of discussion.

Yes, racism existed among the leaders of the church, and those racist tendencies resulted in the priesthood ban. Even so, I believe it would be incorrect to place the blame entirely upon the leaders of the church. There is at least one instance where a church leader, namely David O. McKay, would have changed the ban if he had felt he had permission to do so. President McKay also used the word "policy", not "doctrine", to describe the ban.

The following is from his recent biography, as told by architect Richard Jackson:

I remember one day that President McKay came into the office. We could see that he was very much distressed. He said, "I've had it! I'm not going to do it again!" Somebody said, "What?" He said, "Well, I'm badgered constantly about giving the priesthood to the Negro. I've inquired of the Lord repeatedly. The last time I did it was late last night. I was told, with no discussion, not to bring the subject up with the Lord again; that the time will come, but it will not be my time, and to leave the subject alone." We were all, of course, a little dumb-struck. I don't think it has ever been written that that happened . . . . I can still see him coming in with a bit of a distraught appearance, which was unusual for President McKay. He always appeared as if he had everything under control.
(Gregory A. Prince, David O. McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism, Salt Lake: The University of Utah Press, 2005, pp 104)

It seems clear to me that President McKay would have changed the ban had he felt he could do so. That says to me that the problem lied not only in the leadership, but also the membership of the church. From top to bottom, the church was not ready to give up its racist tendencies.