Modern day apostacy - how would we know?

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by BYU71

That is a good point. I should be happy to know that most of the church isn't in the "white shirt" camp and yet the "State of the Church" is OK.

Translation anyone?

[Spaz]

No one has, as of yet, answered the question posed by the miracle-witnesses of the board. If we've witnessed miracles, and having no miracles is a 'sign of the condemnation of the members of the church', how can we then be under said condemnation?

[BYU71]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

Translation anyone?

No wonder you get lost and confused in any discussion that requires a little intelligence and imagination.

[Spaz]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

Translation anyone?

I think he's pointing out that being in the 'white shirt' camp, as he puts it, doesn't make the membership righteous, as demonstrated by the current "good" state of the church and the fact that few belong to that camp.

[UtahDan]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

It depends what you mean by "the church isn't true" (a loaded term if there ever was one). Take a look at the title of the thread. And go back and look at Adam's first few posts. He is citing the perceived lack of real miracles as evidence of apostasy:






I think my posting record shows that I am anything but an apologist. And I don't have a problem at all with the question at hand (what defines apostacy?, what are the indicators of apostacy?). What I have a problem with is the application of such an overly simplistic metric to make that evaluation. I also believe that the definition of miracles is so subjective that to claim that there are no "real" miracles in modern times is a fundamentally arrogant and ultimately indefensible position.

Well, as they say, if the shoe doesn't fit, try try again.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by UtahDan

The thing I think is so interesting about this thread is that neither Adam, nor I nor anyone else has remotely insinuated that the paucity of miracles is evidence that the church isn't true or that the power to perform miracles doesn't exist within the church. Rather, the idea that is at least being talked about is that perhaps we are under some condemnation as a people and need to live the gospel better to have that condemnation removed.

Come on Dan, this isn't remotely fair. The most generous reading of Adam's posts are suggestive that the church is on the verge of wholesale apostasy.

Originally Posted by UtahDan

Just for the record, I don't necessarily buy that we have gone astray. I'm just amazed that some don't consider it possible.

Why is this so amazing? Have you been paying attention at General Conference anytime in the last decade or two?

When Hinckley repeats that the church is healthy and growing, how shall we respond? "Oh yeah? Where's the miracles, Gordon?"

[UtahDan]

Originally Posted by Spaz

No one has, as of yet, answered the question posed by the miracle-witnesses of the board. If we've witnessed miracles, and having no miracles is a 'sign of the condemnation of the members of the church', how can we then be under said condemnation?

Maybe to move this forward I will take a shot at what I think a miracle is. This is my first effort so I'm open to critical suggestions.

To me there are lots of things that happen every day that are extremely unlikely to have occurred. And, of course, anything can seem amazing with the benefit of hindsight. A few examples to illustrate.

A car accident occurs and everyone is killed by one person who is thrown from the vehicle and only sustains minor injuries. These amazing scenarios, over time, are fairly common and don't seem at all particularized to members of the church. So to me, these kind of miracles don't give us any objective evidence of whether heavenly power is being exercised in our church, though the spirit may tell us.

Brother Smith is very sick and receives a priesthood blessing. The next day, against the expectations of his doctors, he is better. This is also, over time, a fairly common occurrence both inside and outside the church. More over, anecdotal experience tells me that for every person who is healed there are a dozen just as faithful who receive the blessing and die anyway. So to me, these kind of miracles don't give us any objective evidence of whether heavenly power is being exercised in our church, though the spirit may tell us.

So I guess what that leaves me with is someone with priesthood authority calling on God to change an outcome or do something that would defy rational explanation and it happening. These are the kinds of signs and wonders I guess I have in mind when I think of miracles, the kind that accompanied Joseph, the kind he taught people we evidence of the restoration. So, lets hear some criticism of this definition.

Also Spaz, you said before that it was your understanding that you were not to share the miraculous with others. I'm just curious what your authority for that is. I have heard it before and wonder if there is something specific you are relying on.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by UtahDan

Well, as they say, if the shoe doesn't fit, try try again.

???

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by UtahDan

Also Spaz, you said before that it was your understanding that you were not to share the miraculous with others. I'm just curious what your authority for that is. I have heard it before and wonder if there is something specific you are relying on.

Don't cast your pearls before swine?

[UtahDan]

Originally Posted by Tex

Come on Dan, this isn't remotely fair. The most generous reading of Adam's posts are suggestive that the church is on the verge of wholesale apostasy.

I don't know what he has in his head. I just think it is an interesting thought experiment. Clearly, the answer to the question for you is that you would be told.

Originally Posted by Tex

Why is this so amazing? Have you been paying attention at General Conference anytime in the last decade or two?

When Hinckley repeats that the church is healthy and growing, how shall we respond? "Oh yeah? Where's the miracles, Gordon?"

No, but I think it is interesting to ask whether it would have to be the case that the church leadership would see a BOM cycle coming. I see nothing wrong with your assumption that it would but since they are not infallible and have been deceived before one wonders whether it is possible. I think it is possible albeit unlikely.