Temple Recommend required to work at BYU

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by Solon

I have a theoretical question about a church history (religion) class at BYU. While I'm sure it depends on the teacher and situation, could a student be reprimanded for raising questions, writing papers, etc. that posit a more revisionist (negative) view of church history? How do or how have teachers handled difficult or controversial questions?

[Assuming, of course, that all was done respectfully and in the spirit of honest inquiry - not overly negative or cynical but responsibly critical and inquisitive.]

I'm sure there's no blanket answer, but does anyone have an anecdote or an example?

Solon, the religion classes aren't real classes. Yes, you get letter grades, and yes, those grades are counted in your GPA.

But they are basically seminary/institute classes taught by non-academics, and the grading is cutthroat as hell (how are you going to differentiate people and give some of them C's?).

I can't imagine a worse way to manage the religion requirement, frankly. But they didn't ask me.

[Solon]

Originally Posted by jay santos

I'm fine with acknowledging there is a lack of academic freedom in some very narrow areas of study. You might not be able to learn the true Fannie Alger story at BYU. But can you learn it at Michigan? Honestly. Is there a class that would dissect anything LDS at a typical university that you would have a much different, freer environment? Or would those topics simply be absent? I'm fine with acnowledging that an anthroplogical professor has to tiptoe a little around MesoAmerican issues. If MesoAmerica anthropology is your thing, maybe BYU's not right for you.

The issue I have a serious problem with is that this alleged culture of academic "dishonesty" spills over to all areas and that BYU students are trained to be close minded robots. This is just totally and completely inaccurate.

I'm sure you're right (in fact, I'm positive that you're right). These issues are so specific and really affect so few people/students that it's too bad this seems to make such a big splash. I suppose it's the principle of the matter that most (including me) object to, but I don't really know what anyone can do about it. BYU is perfectly free to do what it wants, but it will always draw extra scrutiny because of its religious affiliation. I'm personally opposed to the academic environment at BYU, however limited - but that's why I'm not a student there. I have no problems affording others their choice to go to school there. It's just a choice. There are stricter controls and more serious accusations at super-conservative religious schools such as Bob Jones University or Wheaton College, and I have personal problems with these schools too. BYU's problem is not unique.

So, take heart. I don't think everyone considers BYU grads "close minded robots" as a rule. (There are plenty of LDS people in the world who qualify as such, regardless of where they went to college; for that matter, there are close minded robots in any profession/religion/etc.) While some may criticize the administration, most (in my experience) consider a BYU education a fine education.

[Solon]

Originally Posted by Mormon Red Death

Ok Honest example...

Rodin Exhibit at the Y.... I have seen "the kiss" in Paris and to be honest I was surprised it caused such an uproar.

That's a good example. I was pretty bent that I couldn't go to Provo and see The Kiss. [I sent Merrill Bateman a postcard of the statue from Paris in 1999.] Also, I've taught books in classes that might be problematic due to their explicit language and homosexual themes, but since I don't teach at BYU, I can't say definitively that I would get in trouble (e.g. Song of Solomon by Toni Morrison; Plato's Symposium - good books and important for literary/historical studies). But hey, it's their school. They do what they want. BYU students do miss out on some experiences that are common at other colleges.

As I said (somewhere) above, it just gets a little difficult to sort out the feelings because of BYU's ties to my religious faith. I know that BYU and the church are not identical, but the overlap makes for some funky personal identity issues.

[Jeff Lebowski]

This has been a fun discussion. Any new topic that can generate over 100 replies in one day has obviously hit on a nerve.

A couple of observations. This all started out by Mike giving yet a few more reasons why would never stoop so low as to work at BYU. I am not sure we have established that BYU would want him, but that's a topic for another day.

<rant>Back to what I consider to be the real topic here: Why do some folks choose to either work at BYU or attend BYU in light of these well-known faults and shortcomings? It is the very same reason many folks continue to love and support the church in spite of numerous perceived faults. Because they consider the good to outweigh the bad. And some people are comfortable working within the system and looking for chances to be a positive force for good and for promoting common sense instead of standing on the outside and bitching about every little fault.</rant>

[Solon]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Solon, the religion classes aren't real classes. Yes, you get letter grades, and yes, those grades are counted in your GPA.

But they are basically seminary/institute classes taught by non-academics, and the grading is cutthroat as hell (how are you going to differentiate people and give some of them C's?).

I can't imagine a worse way to manage the religion requirement, frankly. But they didn't ask me.

Ouch. They give letter grades? I assumed it would be Credit / No Credit or something. I think that would be tough. Other religious colleges have religion courses, I guess. I guess I'm just naive.

[MikeWaters]

When I left BYU I told myself that the only way I would come back is as president. And not a normal BYU president. One with free reign.

Of course that is not going to happen, so I won't ever be returning.

My love for BYU is very complex.

[Goatnapper'96]

Originally Posted by Solon

I'm sure you're right (in fact, I'm positive that you're right). These issues are so specific and really affect so few people/students that it's too bad this seems to make such a big splash. I suppose it's the principle of the matter that most (including me) object to, but I don't really know what anyone can do about it. BYU is perfectly free to do what it wants, but it will always draw extra scrutiny because of its religious affiliation. I'm personally opposed to the academic environment at BYU, however limited - but that's why I'm not a student there. I have no problems affording others their choice to go to school there. It's just a choice. There are stricter controls and more serious accusations at super-conservative religious schools such as Bob Jones University or Wheaton College, and I have personal problems with these schools too. BYU's problem is not unique.

So, take heart. I don't think everyone considers BYU grads "close minded robots" as a rule. (There are plenty of LDS people in the world who qualify as such, regardless of where they went to college; for that matter, there are close minded robots in any profession/religion/etc.) While some may criticize the administration, most (in my experience) consider a BYU education a fine education.

It boils down to one what wants. If one's perspective on University is a glorified trade school in which the supreme purpose is to learn a trade that one can apply to earning a living, BYU is an optimal place. In professional pursuits it is highly reputable, it is cheap and if one is LDS it is a good environment to find a suitable companion. Of course this precludes youngsters who grow up emotionally attached to Utah or USU and have been classically conditioned to dislike BYU, thus demonstrating their openmindedness.

However if one prefers the more traditional university experience BYU will not provide that to the extent of other universities. I think the U of U endeavors to be more of that traditional university, but I wonder how much the undergraduate student body could facilitate consistent competition. In comparing BYU to Utah there seems to be a trade off in traditional academic approach versus a capable student body, not that they are mutually exclusive just that as both have developed such is their individual crosses to bare.

I believe that BYU tends to personify the LDS culture that education is merely a means to an end rather than an end in and of itself. That does not particularly bother me as I tend to lean to that way of thinking to some extent, but I also reflect upon my college experience and wonder what I missed. I was never taught marxism by a genuine marxist. I was taught by a Rhodes Scholar right wing full bird COL whose entire explanation was that marxism results in everyone wearing size 8 shoe regardless of size. It was obviously a supply driven socio-economic system and thus flawed. I figure that a genuine Marxist could probably offer some arguments that claim that there are certain aspects in which Marxism is superior to a capitalistic Republic.

[il Padrino Ute]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

When I left BYU I told myself that the only way I would come back is as president. And not a normal BYU president. One with free reign.

Of course that is not going to happen, so I won't ever be returning.

My love for BYU is very complex.

No unconditional love for BYU, eh?

[Cali Coug]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

Yes, you can.



This one really makes me laugh. The notion that BYU getting rid of the bones had anything to do with "didn't know how to acknowledge the existence of dinosaurs" is beyond absurd. These bones were collected (for the most part) by "Dinosaur Jim" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_A._Jensen) a fairly famous paleontologist who worked at BYU for several years. Jim died in 1998 and BYU gave the bones away to a museum because they did not have the resources to house them permanently. Evolution is taught without apology at BYU.



That could be true. But after your previous zinger, I am skeptical.

As to your first point, I know several people who have had different experiences.

As to your second, I could be wrong. What I do know is that Dallin Oaks was a huge proponent of Prof. Jensen (who, as you correctly noted, was one of the most prominent paleantologists in the world). Oaks was frustrated that the church would not do anything to put the bones on exhibit. He wrote a letter to the Board of Trustees in 1972 (as President of the university) asking for guidance on what to do with the bones. He noted in his letter that "Jensen points out . . . that the bones are there and cannot really be ignored by a major university that is almost literally sitting on top of them. . . . The interpretation of fossils should not go by default to those who are aggressively atheistic in their conclusions. Students in elementary and secondary schools in this state and throughout the country are being subjected to teachings which do not make dinosaurs compatible with the revealed word of God." (Bergera and Priddis, Brigham Young University: A House of Faith, 1985, p. 163.) The fossils were never found a home at BYU and remained under the bleachers for another 30 years.

You can say they didn't have a home and that was the reason they were stored under the bleachers, but it ignores the obvious question of why they didn't have a home at BYU. Funding? Why couldn't BYU get funding to build a world class museum? It would have paid for itself many times over (as Thanksgiving Point is now demonstrating). The answer may be one you aren't prepared to accept. As BYU religion professor Reid Bankhead noted, "Evolution is of the devil; those who work with it are, conscientious or otherwise, engaged in the devil's work." (BYU religion professor Reid Bankhead; cited in Bergera and Priddis, Brigham Young University: A House of Faith, 1985, p. 161.)

Or, as Elder Ezra Taft Benson noted, "organic evolutionary views . . . are taught and believed by many professors . . . and numerous students at the BYU. . . . the stench of apostasy is permeating many departments on campus." Elder Benson forwarded the letter to Gordon B. Hinckley, adding a cover note, "The problem seems to be increasing, not diminishing. Some of the latest complaints which have come to me have been from individual students." (Bergera and Priddis, Brigham Young University: A House of Faith, 1985, p.167.)

As to the third point, it is true- despite my "zingers."

FWIW, I think BYU is a fine institution with a lot to offer. I think it also has many shortcomings, however, some of which are noted in my posts here.

[Solon]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

Why do some folks choose to either work at BYU or attend BYU in light of these well-known faults and shortcomings? It is the very same reason many folks continue to love and support the church in spite of numerous perceived faults. Because they consider the good to outweigh the bad. And some people are comfortable working within the system and looking for chances to be a positive force for good and for promoting common sense instead of standing on the outside and bitching about every little fault.</rant>

Nicely stated. It bugs me when people attend or work at the BYU, yet still complain loudly (a little complaining is always okay ) about such things. To allude to the old GA talk, "You knew what it was when you picked it up."