(Im)mutability of Same Gender Attraction

[CardiacCoug]

Originally Posted by Archaea

How does the genetic component of homosexuality not destroy the Mormon or other orthodox view of the existence of God?

How can you reconcile the two?

I don't really see the incompatibility. Even if you view the state of homosexuality as a sin (which I don't), God has allowed genetic predispositions toward violence, substance abuse, and promiscuity to persist in certain individuals -- why would he not allow genetic predisposition to homosexuality?

I read a book about bonobos and chimps recently (Our Inner Ape, by Frans De Waal) and these primates, especially bonobos, which share 95%+ of our genetic material, engage in a great deal of homosexual activity.

Now why evolution would preserve genetic tendencies toward homosexuality in humans and other primates is an interesting question, since being gay is a fairly obvious reproductive disadvantage. I saw an article recently that suggested that the female relatives of homosexual men have more children on average than females without male homosexual relatives. Probably the "gay genes" lead to reproductive advantage in straight people when they are present in certain combinations that don't lead to homosexuality.

Anyway, for me homosexuality being "in the genes" doesn't seem like much of a challenge to belief in God. There are plenty of other more troubling philosophical challenges from my perspective.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by CardiacCoug

I don't really see the incompatibility. Even if you view the state of homosexuality as a sin (which I don't), God has allowed genetic predispositions toward violence, substance abuse, and promiscuity to persist in certain individuals -- why would he not allow genetic predisposition to homosexuality?

I read a book about bonobos and chimps recently (Our Inner Ape, by Frans De Waal) and these primates, especially bonobos, which share 95%+ of our genetic material, engage in a great deal of homosexual activity.

Now why evolution would preserve genetic tendencies toward homosexuality in humans and other primates is an interesting question, since being gay is a fairly obvious reproductive disadvantage. I saw an article recently that suggested that the female relatives of homosexual men have more children on average than females without male homosexual relatives. Probably the "gay genes" lead to reproductive advantage in straight people when they are present in certain combinations that don't lead to homosexuality.

Anyway, for me homosexuality being "in the genes" doesn't seem like much of a challenge to belief in God. There are plenty of other more troubling philosophical challenges from my perspective.

A God who supposedly has a plan for all would allow for genetic predispositions to avoid the ability to procreate? Is that logical and I don't find it analogous sufficient to your other comparison.

This goes to a fundamental purpose.

You are speaking of the Italian study showing increased fertility in the sisters of gay men.

Nonetheless, it doesn't explain very well that God would allow people to fundamentally be incapable of fulfilling a divine purpose. Creekster's explanation seems to be, "God is just and will provide a way." IOW, theologically we may be wrong or we just don't know. Not very satisfying.

[ChinoCoug]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

Is there a difference in the mutability of sexual orientation in women compared to men?

Here ya go:


http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0613075252.htm

The Northwestern researchers measured the psychological and physiological sexual arousal in homosexual and heterosexual men and women as they watched erotic films. There were three types of erotic films: those featuring only men, those featuring only women and those featuring male and female couples. As with previous research, the researchers found that men responded consistent with their sexual orientations. In contrast, both homosexual and heterosexual women showed a bisexual pattern of psychological as well as genital arousal. That is, heterosexual women were just as sexually aroused by watching female stimuli as by watching male stimuli, even though they prefer having sex with men rather than women.

[ChinoCoug]

p.s. one could argue that women who switch their "orientation" back and forth aren't real lesbians.

Thanks to Goat for enlightening me on this subject:

http://cougarguard.com/forum/showthr...ing#post191927

[creekster]

Originally Posted by Archaea

Nonetheless, it doesn't explain very well that God would allow people to fundamentally be incapable of fulfilling a divine purpose. Creekster's explanation seems to be, "God is just and will provide a way." IOW, theologically we may be wrong or we just don't know. Not very satisfying.

All kinds of people are practically or literally unable to fulfill that aspect (or some other aspect) of the purpose of life. Just as God promised Alma that those who burned children would receive their punishment at judgment, so I believe God will bless those children (and others) with all blessings that they might have recevied had they been able to fulfill the measure of their spiritual creation. It must be so.

[CardiacCoug]

Originally Posted by Archaea

A God who supposedly has a plan for all would allow for genetic predispositions to avoid the ability to procreate? Is that logical and I don't find it analogous sufficient to your other comparison.

This goes to a fundamental purpose.

You are speaking of the Italian study showing increased fertility in the sisters of gay men.

Nonetheless, it doesn't explain very well that God would allow people to fundamentally be incapable of fulfilling a divine purpose. Creekster's explanation seems to be, "God is just and will provide a way." IOW, theologically we may be wrong or we just don't know. Not very satisfying.

Yeah, I understand your point. We Mormons put so much influence on family life and procreation that gayness becomes especially problematic for our theology.

Although, God obviously "allows" plenty of people to be born with mental retardation and other conditions that prevent fulfilling any divine purpose to a greater degree than being born gay.

I think Creekster is correct that the official position is that God will fix everything in the next life. I think that is a very comforting belief for many people but I agree with you that I don't find it very intellectually satisfying.

[creekster]

Originally Posted by CardiacCoug

I think that is a very comforting belief for many people but I agree with you that I don't find it very intellectually satisfying.

The implication (and I think unintended) is that taking comfort here is an emotional and not intellectual response to this issue. For some, I am sure, this is true. OTOH, I think that a spiritual confirmation of this truth can provide great comfort as well as revealed knowledge that is as powerful to any given individual as an intellectual investigation. Just my thought.

[SoCalCoug]

Originally Posted by ChinoCoug

Here ya go:


http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0613075252.htm

The Northwestern researchers measured the psychological and physiological sexual arousal in homosexual and heterosexual men and women as they watched erotic films. There were three types of erotic films: those featuring only men, those featuring only women and those featuring male and female couples. As with previous research, the researchers found that men responded consistent with their sexual orientations. In contrast, both homosexual and heterosexual women showed a bisexual pattern of psychological as well as genital arousal. That is, heterosexual women were just as sexually aroused by watching female stimuli as by watching male stimuli, even though they prefer having sex with men rather than women.

And I don't blame them one bit. About the being "sexually aroused by watching female stimuli" part - not the "prefer having sex with men" part.

[SoCalCoug]

Originally Posted by ChinoCoug

p.s. one could argue that women who switch their "orientation" back and forth aren't real lesbians.

Thanks to Goat for enlightening me on this subject:

http://cougarguard.com/forum/showthr...ing#post191927

You did a search for "carpet munching"?

[ChinoCoug]

Originally Posted by SoCalCoug

You did a search for "carpet munching"?

Yeah, "gay" and "lesbian" turned up too many posts. Had to find something more narrow. Fortunately, one of Goat's memorable lines came to mind.