I was sort of baffled by the black guy that quoted John Taylor

[Tex]

Originally Posted by UtahDan

I agree with Indy, it is not possible that the ban had anything to do with anyone in the church being racist. Since everything always goes the way that God intends it to, and since there is no precedent for God witholding blessings or higher laws based on the hard heartedness of His people, we can only assume that the timing of the ban being lifted is exactly according to His plans.

See also the extermination of the Nephites.

Heh, amusing. I don't think this is what Indy (or I) was suggesting ... in fact, check a few posts up and you'll see I acknowledge this as one possibility.

From the start, my objection has been over the presentation of alternative possibilities that are nothing more than conjecture (sensical though they may be) rather than fact as legimate explanations to people who know no better.

Moreover, I reject this desire to place "blame" for the policy on someone, anyone ... even the prophets, if we can't find anyone else to scapegoat.

[UtahDan]

Originally Posted by Tex

Heh, amusing. I don't think this is what Indy (or I) was suggesting ... in fact, check a few posts up and you'll see I acknowledge this as one possibility.

From the start, my objection has been over the presentation of alternative possibilities that are nothing more than conjecture (sensical though they may be) rather than fact as legimate explanations to people who know no better.

Moreover, I reject this desire to place "blame" for the policy on someone, anyone ... even the prophets, if we can't find anyone else to scapegoat.

You have spilled an awful lot of ink, so to speak, when you could have just said "I think these things are unknowable, and I question the motivations of those who disagree." :-)

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by UtahDan

I agree with Indy, it is not possible that the ban had anything to do with anyone in the church being racist. Since everything always goes the way that God intends it to, and since there is no precedent for God witholding blessings or higher laws based on the hard heartedness of His people, we can only assume that the timing of the ban being lifted is exactly according to His plans.

See also the extermination of the Nephites.

This covers prophetic racism how?

[Taq Man]

Originally Posted by SteelBlue

I think I've covered this ad nauseum.

From what you have said I think you are in the camp of the prophets did lead the church astray (for doctrinal or policy reasons in irrelevant, astray is astray). But when someone finally got around to asking the Lord to clarify he did so.

The church was still led to believe in the dark/evil nature of the black race for over a century. Can a prophet lead the church astray?

[SteelBlue]

Originally Posted by Taq Man

From what you have said I think you are in the camp of the prophets did lead the church astray (for doctrinal or policy reasons in irrelevant, astray is astray). But when someone finally got around to asking the Lord to clarify he did so.

The church was still led to believe in the dark/evil nature of the black race for over a century. Can a prophet lead the church astray?

The policy was not well known and was a moot point for most of the 130 years. Not exactly my definition of "led astray". Put the issue on a timeline and I think you've got 20 years of debate and finally a revelation.

I disagree that the church was led to believe in a dark/evil nature of the black race. I think America was racist during most of those years, and many Mormons held some of those beliefs. This included some of our leaders. I don't think it was because of the ban that these beliefs were held.

[Taq Man]

Originally Posted by SteelBlue

The policy was not well known and was a moot point for most of the 130 years. Not exactly my definition of "led astray". Put the issue on a timeline and I think you've got 20 years of debate and finally a revelation.

I disagree that the church was led to believe in a dark/evil nature of the black race. I think America was racist during most of those years, and many Mormons held some of those beliefs. This included some of our leaders. I don't think it was because of the ban that these beliefs were held.

Right up to Bruce R. McKonkie you have the generall belief in the church that the black race was cursed to come through the seed of Cain and be denied priesthood blessings because they were fence sitters during the war in heaven. This was the dominant belief about the black race among mormons (and still is for many of the older generation). You had the Book of Mormon speak about the white race as white and delightfull and the dark lamanites as loathsome.

You can read Improvement Era articles about the Indian placement program and white families said that the skin of their Indian children was much whiter than that of their family members back on the res.

This is no longer taught or thought about in the same way. The church was lead astray by the early racist teachings of Brigham Young and company.

[SteelBlue]

Originally Posted by Taq Man

Right up to Bruce R. McKonkie you have the generall belief in the church that the black race was cursed to come through the seed of Cain and be denied priesthood blessings because they were fence sitters during the war in heaven. This was the dominant belief about the black race among mormons (and still is for many of the older generation). You had the Book of Mormon speak about the white race as white and delightfull and the dark lamanites as loathsome.

You can read Improvement Era articles about the Indian placement program and white families said that the skin of their Indian children was much whiter than that of their family members back on the res.

This is no longer taught or thought about in the same way. The church was lead astray by the early racist teachings of Brigham Young and company.

We have different definitions of led astray I guess. The fact that you're citing incidences from the 70's and further back tells me that we've not been led astray. I believe the Lord will not allow his prophets to lead the church down a road that will cost us our salvation. I do not now, nor have I since the age of perhaps 8, believed that a prophet cannot make an error. These were not errors that cost the people salvation.

I'm well aware of the examples that you cite. I'm glad we've moved beyond them. I think they are good examples of opinions that were never doctrinal.

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by Taq Man

Right up to Bruce R. McKonkie you have the generall belief in the church that the black race was cursed to come through the seed of Cain and be denied priesthood blessings because they were fence sitters during the war in heaven. This was the dominant belief about the black race among mormons (and still is for many of the older generation). You had the Book of Mormon speak about the white race as white and delightfull and the dark lamanites as loathsome.

You can read Improvement Era articles about the Indian placement program and white families said that the skin of their Indian children was much whiter than that of their family members back on the res.

This is no longer taught or thought about in the same way. The church was lead astray by the early racist teachings of Brigham Young and company.

They used to think the world revolved around the sun, and I bet they had a doctrinal reaons behind it. Does God need his prophet to clear up every possible misconception man has?

[Taq Man]

Originally Posted by SteelBlue

We have different definitions of led astray I guess. The fact that you're citing incidences from the 70's and further back tells me that we've not been led astray. I believe the Lord will not allow his prophets to lead the church down a road that will cost us our salvation. I do not now, nor have I since the age of perhaps 8, believed that a prophet cannot make an error. These were not errors that cost the people salvation.

I'm well aware of the examples that you cite. I'm glad we've moved beyond them. I think they are good examples of opinions that were never doctrinal.

What about the man that followed Brighams council and slit the throats of an inter-racial couple. Would that cost anyone their salvation?

[Taq Man]

Originally Posted by jay santos

They used to think the world revolved around the sun, and I bet they had a doctrinal reaons behind it. Does God need his prophet to clear up every possible misconception man has?

When it leads to exclusion of the blessings needed for the Celestial kingdom then yes I think he does. When it leads to God's people looking at a whole race of people as inferior, then yes I think he does. When the incorrect doctrine also leads to violence (Brigham advocated it) then yes I think he does.