Modern day apostacy - how would we know?

[Spaz]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

You need to check your source. I have heard that one lots of times. LDS urban legend.

I had never heard it, and the source said it was her aunt or some such.

Given some of my personal experiences in the temple, I wouldn't automatically categorize it as urban legend.

It is certainly possible that I misunderstood something and it's nothing more than that...

[UtahDan]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

I.e., you want miracles that can be independently verified and scientifically proven (statistically significant). Good luck with that.

Given that part of our mission on earth (as taught by JS) is to learn to walk by faith, do you think it is likely that God would provide an indisputable "smoking gun", such that even the Chris Hitchens of the world would fall in line?

And I would like to see a list of those indisputable miracles done by JS.

No I don't expect to be able to verify anything scientifically. Is that really what you thought I meant? I also agree completely that we are here to learn to walk by faith and I could carry that logic far enough that I could buy the idea that God wouldn't ever supply the "smoking gun." Yet, if I believe the scriptures, he has done just that repeatedly. Now, people still didn't believe notwithstanding the miracle so your question as to what value they really have is very well taken in my opinion.

I don't think Joseph did perform any indisputable miracles, so maybe that is where my definition falls short. Maybe miracles are always subjective,though just to give one example, the miracle of the resurrection was not something Jesus came to the people at the time and asked them to take his word for. He invited them to feel the prints in his hands and feet. He ate honeycomb with some of them. I don't know. I do know that Jospeh claimed to have witnessed all kind of miraculous things. Gold plates, heavenly manifestations, visions, dreams and more. He also routinely made specific prophesies. None of that stuff is independently verifiable. I don't expect it to be and I think I have said until I am blue in the face in other threads that religion is built on faith rather than evidences anyway.

Anyway, if those things I mentioned happened to Joseph (and I recognize that the priesthood can only be restored once for example) and we don't hear the prophet say such things are happening to him nor really for the last 100 years or more, I think it is at least fair to wonder why it stopped or why we are no longer being told if it didn't stop. I hope that makes sense, I am sort of thinking out loud here in an effort to firm up what I think.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by Spaz

I had never heard it, and the source said it was her aunt or some such.

Given some of my personal experiences in the temple, I wouldn't automatically categorize it as urban legend.

It is certainly possible that I misunderstood something and it's nothing more than that...

No worries. My FIL told me countless urban legends. In every case he claimed to know the person involved.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by UtahDan

So to me, these kind of miracles don't give us any objective evidence of whether heavenly power is being exercised in our church, though the spirit may tell us.

Since when has anything related to the veracity and/or efficacy of this work relied on objective evidence?

[UtahDan]

Originally Posted by Spaz

I default to not share unless prompted. Keep in mind, that my default for promptings is that if I want to do something, and I'm not directed not to, I consider that authorization to do so.

In other words, in a church setting, I would consider sharing a personal experience, and unless the spirit told me not to do so I would. On the other hand, in a forum like this, I would not want to share the experience, and therefore would not do so until prompted.

So why do you feel that way? Alma, for example, got up out of bed and told anyone who would listen to him. I'm not saying you are wrong, just trying to understand ho you have come to feel this way.

[Spaz]

Originally Posted by UtahDan

Anyway, if those things I mentioned happened to Joseph (and I recognize that the priesthood can only be restored once for example) and we don't hear the prophet say such things are happening to him nor really for the last 100 years or more, I think it is at least fair to wonder why it stopped or why we are no longer being told if it didn't stop. I hope that makes sense, I am sort of thinking out loud here in an effort to firm up what I think.

In terms of what we're told in regards to miracles performed by the Apostles, I can absolutely understand the question & pondering regarding this.

[This comment is not meant for UtahDan, but the board generally and Adam specifically] On the other hand, to discount the miracles witnessed by countless members as being inconsequential, and evidence of the church's 'state of condemnation' is simply arrogant and logically flawed.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by UtahDan

So why do you feel that way? Alma, for example, got up out of bed and told anyone who would listen to him. I'm not saying you are wrong, just trying to understand ho you have come to feel this way.

What was the ancient default position to share or not to share? The scriptures would have us believe sharing was the norm, but perhaps it was so abnormal it was noted.

Again, why are we so reluctant to share? I have only simple things to share, so most would not note such simple things. If a momentous thing occurred I wonder if I would share. Probably not, but then again it hasn't happened.

[Mormon Red Death]

Originally Posted by UtahDan

So why do you feel that way? Alma, for example, got up out of bed and told anyone who would listen to him. I'm not saying you are wrong, just trying to understand ho you have come to feel this way.

The first rule about fight club is that you don't tell anyone about fight club

[Spaz]

Originally Posted by UtahDan

So why do you feel that way? Alma, for example, got up out of bed and told anyone who would listen to him. I'm not saying you are wrong, just trying to understand ho you have come to feel this way.

When I was taught the lesson on being careful with spiritual experiences (and it actually may have been Packer's talk I listened to and took to heart, cited in Tex's post), I felt a spiritual confirmation that what was being taught was true.

Therefore, I practice the precepts taught in the lesson.

[UtahDan]

Originally Posted by Tex

As effective as quoting Packer typically is on CG, here you go:

From his "Candle of the Lord" talk. Pretty famous talk, actually.

http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vg...____&hideNav=1

No, I think he is making a good point there and I do appreciate you pointing that authority out. I wasn't suggesting none existed. Just that I wasn't aware of what it was. I'm sure there are lots of famous talks whose contents I don't recall.