Black and Mormon

[smokymountainrain]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Is scholars can argue over what "blackness" is, imagine 80 year old men in Utah, who probably didn't have a black friend among them, trying to figure out all the dilemmas and conundrums that were arising in the church regarding this issue.

That's really what fascinates me about this issue...

Johan Santana has been ordained to the office of an Elder...

Pedro Martinez is too black - that curly hair is simply too much to overlook.

Did they flip a coin with some guys?

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by smokymountainrain

That's really what fascinates me about this issue...

Johan Santana has been ordained to the office of an Elder...

Pedro Martinez is too black - that curly hair is simply too much to overlook.

Did they flip a coin with some guys?

Read the dialogue article on the preceding page.

There were different strategies and different standards undertaken at different time.

What comes out is that Americans have one version of what it means to be black, and Brazilians have a different version. The problem is that this led to some tensions, where the gringos said "this guy has black ancestry" and the Brazilians saying "this guy is not black". What a mess.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

What a mess.

I suppose it's passe to remind everyone that this "mess" is already 30-years-old.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by Tex

I suppose it's passe to remind everyone that this "mess" is already 30-years-old.

Except the fact that it is only now that Mormons are really talking about the issue and actually calling it a boondoggle.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Except the fact that it is only now that Mormons are really talking about the issue and actually calling it a boondoggle.

CG Mormons != mainstream Mormons.

[Mormon Red Death]

Originally Posted by Tex

I suppose it's passe to remind everyone that this "mess" is already 30-years-old.

perhaps we should just sweep it under the rug and say it never happened. Just like polygamy

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Mormon Red Death

perhaps we should just sweep it under the rug and say it never happened. Just like polygamy

If it's a binary choice between that, and agonizing and self-flagellating over it for the next 70 years, I'll choose the former.

I happen to think there's a gray area in the middle that's being overlooked.

[Solon]

Originally Posted by Mormon Red Death

perhaps we should just sweep it under the rug and say it never happened. Just like polygamy

I heard that the Ministry of Truth already has Winston Smith working on it.

[Solon]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

One more point on this topic: An author in the book argues that one of the most attractive features of the church for black investigators is the concept of a literal Father in Heaven and that we are all children of God with unlimited potential. This resonates with them. When they are subsequently told, "Yes, you are a child of God, but not one of the good ones", it is shattering. I thought that was an interesting insight.

A friend sent this link to me last night (helluva coincidence). It's a black Mormon homepage and chronicles very thoroughly the statements of LDS leaders on the issue from the beginning through Golden Boy Hinckley.

http://www.angelfire.com/mo2/blackmormon/homepage.html

My favorite part of the site is the photo of Eldridge Cleaver preaching in a Mormon ward in Oakland.

There's also an interesting snippet of an interview with GBH where Hinckley refused to say the church was wrong to deny blacks the priesthood. Hinckley is quoted as saying, "NO I DON'T THINK IT WAS WRONG. It, things, various things happened in different periods. There’s a reason for them. [emphasis by the website]."

So there you have it -Hinckley didn't think it was wrong. (if we can believe this source)

I do.

[pelagius]

Originally Posted by Tex

If it's a binary choice between that, and agonizing and self-flagellating over it for the next 70 years, I'll choose the former.

I happen to think there's a gray area in the middle that's being overlooked.

Unpopular as it may be, I am going to partially agree with Tex. I see signs of the church leadership and rank a file doing more. I know MW thinks it is a snails pace and not fast enough (and he may be right). But it is movement. I thought Elder Holland's remarks in the PBS documentary were very helpful. MW will point out that they don't go far enough and that's probably true but this is going to be incremental. I think we should be grateful for the incremental steps that the church is taking to deal with this issue and be realistic about the institutional reasons that the pace will be slow (which I think Elder Holland does point out):

PBS:
I've talked to many blacks and many whites as well about the lingering folklore [about why blacks couldn't have the priesthood]. These are faithful Mormons who are delighted about this revelation, and yet who feel something more should be said about the folklore and even possibly about the mysterious reasons for the ban itself, which was not a revelation; it was a practice. So if you could, briefly address the concerns Mormons have about this folklore and what should be done.

Elder Holland:

One clear-cut position is that the folklore must never be perpetuated. ... I have to concede to my earlier colleagues. ... They, I'm sure, in their own way, were doing the best they knew to give shape to [the policy], to give context for it, to give even history to it. All I can say is however well intended the explanations were, I think almost all of them were inadequate and/or wrong. ...

It probably would have been advantageous to say nothing, to say we just don't know, and, [as] with many religious matters, whatever was being done was done on the basis of faith at that time. But some explanations were given and had been given for a lot of years. ... At the very least, there should be no effort to perpetuate those efforts to explain why that doctrine existed. I think, to the extent that I know anything about it, as one of the newer and younger ones to come along, ... we simply do not know why that practice, that policy, that doctrine was in place.