Poll: What form of church discipline do I deserve?

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Levin

What else is it? And when you answer, describe what it adds that withholding of the Sacrament or stripping of callings, prayers, etc. and temple recommends doesn't.

While there is an aspect of revoking someone's blessings that does feel punitive, the larger intent is to spur repentance.

Is someone who shows contrition at a disciplinary council sufficiently penitent to match his offense? There's no way to answer such a hypothetical question because each circumstance is different. But on the (in my opinion, increasingly rare) occasion when a penitent man is nonetheless excommunicated, it is intended to help the repentance process, not merely to punish.

[Levin]

Originally Posted by Tex

While there is an aspect of revoking someone's blessings that does feel punitive, the larger intent is to spur repentance.

Is someone who shows contrition at a disciplinary council sufficiently penitent to match his offense? There's no way to answer such a hypothetical question because each circumstance is different. But on the (in my opinion, increasingly rare) occasion when a penitent man is nonetheless excommunicated, it is intended to help the repentance process, not merely to punish.

I know that's the intent, and I guess it depends on the level of penitence. But if a person is penitent, then I don't see a reason to ex him. To aid the repentance process? He's fully penitent!

[SeattleUte]

Ignore them. Trust me, you'll be glad you did. Also, if you're indifferent they don't care about you.

[Levin]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

Also, if you're indifferent they don't care about you.

This is true, and is part of the reason why excommunicating the penitent bothers me.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Levin

I know that's the intent, and I guess it depends on the level of penitence. But if a person is penitent, then I don't see a reason to ex him. To aid the repentance process? He's fully penitent!

You're speaking of penitence as though it's binary.

[Levin]

Originally Posted by Tex

You're speaking of penitence as though it's binary.

For the purposes of this discussion, yes. I acknowledged in an earlier post that the level of penitence matters, but for pursposes of this discussion, it's fair to say that if a person is penitent -- even "mostly" penitent -- then I see litte that is added to the repentance process by kicking him out of the Church.

You haven't been able to explain why, except to say, "the penitent don't get exed that often, and when they do, it aids the repentance process." How?

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Levin

For the purposes of this discussion, yes. I acknowledged in an earlier post that the level of penitence matters, but for pursposes of this discussion, it's fair to say that if a person is penitent -- even "mostly" penitent -- then I see litte that is added to the repentance process by kicking him out of the Church.

That may or may not be. You're speaking in broad hypothetical terms that are very hard to apply in discrete cases.

Originally Posted by Levin

You haven't been able to explain why, except to say, "the penitent don't get exed that often, and when they do, it aids the repentance process." How?

In some cases, the given "level" (I don't much care for that term) of contrition may be insufficient in view of the transgression. Excommunication has been described by past prophets and apostles as delivering a person over to the "buffetings of Satan." Such a condition can induce a heretofore unexperienced level of contrition and godly sorrow that can aid a person in one very essential part of repentance: forsaking the sin.

The term excommunication is itself not my favorite because it carries such a pejorative image, as though the person is thrown out of his home and job, expected to sleep out in the cold under a bridge. On the contrary, priesthood leaders who choose to excommunicate a transgressor despite his penitence would be wise to keep careful watch on him thereafter, guiding him back to a full restoration of blessings.

[Levin]

Originally Posted by Tex

Excommunication has been described by past prophets and apostles as delivering a person over to the "buffetings of Satan." Such a condition can induce a heretofore unexperienced level of contrition and godly sorrow that can aid a person in one very essential part of repentance: forsaking the sin.

Hypo for you: would your teenager who feels bad about messing up with his girlfriend be more likely to hew to the straight and narrow in situation A or B?

Situation A: Kick teenager out of the houseto live on his own with weekly visits for Sunday dinner.

Situation B: Stay at home, with a curfew, no closed bedroom doors, and loving, daily dinners.

Hypo doesn't match perfectly, but it drives home the point: kicking someone out of an organization is more likely to cause that person to desist from living by that organization's standards than by keeping him in the organization.

To say that exing a member will help that member forsake the sin doesn't seem to have any grounding in logic or experience. Such an argument has the same logic as spanking: the more we make it hurt, the more likely you won't mess up again. But then there is even a difference between spanking, and kicking you out of the house.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Levin

Hypo for you: would your teenager who feels bad about messing up with his girlfriend be more likely to hew to the straight and narrow in situation A or B?

Situation A: Kick teenager out of the houseto live on his own with weekly visits for Sunday dinner.

Situation B: Stay at home, with a curfew, no closed bedroom doors, and loving, daily dinners.

Hypo doesn't match perfectly, but it drives home the point: kicking someone out of an organization is more likely to cause that person to desist from living by that organization's standards than by keeping him in the organization.

Not only does it not match perfectly, it doesn't match at all. In fact, it's as if you completely ignored my last post.

Originally Posted by Levin

To say that exing a member will help that member forsake the sin doesn't seem to have any grounding in logic or experience. Such an argument has the same logic as spanking: the more we make it hurt, the more likely you won't mess up again. But then there is even a difference between spanking, and kicking you out of the house.

Again reflecting your view that excommunication is nothing but punitive. You've said this once already.

[Levin]

Only defense you've given of exing a penitent person is that it will help him forsake the sin. I think kicking someone out of an organization is more likely to cause that person to desist from living by that organization's standards than by keeping him in the organization. Why do you think differently?