The church has spoken...

[Flystripper]

Originally Posted by Tex

Heh. Losing sucks, doesn't it?

It does not suck for me as much as it does for my friends and family that are gay, but you are right, it does suck. It sucks to have to have individual bigotry by members of the church validated. It sucks to see marriages between 2 loving gay people end. It will suck to see the marriages that have already occurred between 2 loving gay people invalidated. You are right Tex losing this battle does suck. It is a sad sad day today.

Congratulations Yes on 8 voters. Your right to discriminate was reinstated. Let's all throw a party.

[creekster]

Originally Posted by Flystripper

It does not suck for me as much as it does for my friends and family that are gay, but you are right, it does suck. It sucks to have to have individual bigotry by members of the church validated. It sucks to see marriages between 2 loving gay people end. It will suck to see the marriages that have already occurred between 2 loving gay people invalidated. You are right Tex losing this battle does suck. It is a sad sad day today.

Congratulations Yes on 8 voters. Your right to discriminate was reinstated. Let's all throw a party.

This is a crock. It ignores the many discussions we have had on thiw site in the past few weeks and sinks well below the thoughtful opinions you typically post.

[Flystripper]

Originally Posted by creekster

This is a crock. It ignores the many discussions we have had on thiw site in the past few weeks and sinks well below the thoughtful opinions you typically post.

Well that may be. I am just frustrated. It is a sad day for me and my family. Nobody likes being called a bigot. I try not to throw that word around because it is so confrontational. It is a "fighting word", but prop 8 does discriminate against gay people. It prevents them from marrying the person they love. To me that is sad. I am sorry if I am lashing out.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Once again, it is a hollow victory. This fact that they even feel the need to issue a statement like this illustrates that the battle was "won" but at tremendous cost. The church will be paying for this for a long time, IMO.

[OrangeUte]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

Once again, it is a hollow victory. This fact that they even feel the need to issue a statement like this illustrates that the battle was "won" but at tremendous cost. The church will be paying for this for a long time, IMO.

very well put, Lebowski.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

Once again, it is a hollow victory. This fact that they even feel the need to issue a statement like this illustrates that the battle was "won" but at tremendous cost. The church will be paying for this for a long time, IMO.

I don't know what was won and what was lost.

The definition of marriage is preserved in California. Okay.

What did the Church lose? Favor with gays? Did it ever have any favor with gays? So, can it lose something it never had?

It invested political capital, and preserved some capital by winning. Had it lost, that would have mattered, because then it would have lost political capital and not won what it sought out to win.

[bluegoose]

Originally Posted by Archaea

What did the Church lose? Favor with gays? Did it ever have any favor with gays? So, can it lose something it never had?

It loses those gay members of the church who wish to remain a part of the church, but don't feel like they have a place.

[FMCoug]

Originally Posted by bluegoose

It loses those gay members of the church who wish to remain a part of the church, but don't feel like they have a place.

Do they? Homosexuality is SUCH a problematic issue and my heart goes out to those who have to deal with it either personally or in their family. I have several gay friends who are LDS or former LDS and I really have no answer for them.

But the bottom line is this. Homosexual relationships are NOT in concert with the gospel. They just aren't. That has been made clear over and over. Since the family is central to the plan of Salvation, how do you reconcile homosexuality. You can't.

So how exactly do you make a place for them in the Church? Love them, support them in their rightous endeavors, etc. absolutely. But the bottom line is that they are not going to feel a part of the church with family relationships being such a big part of it.

I really have no answer. It's one of the "god will sort it all out" things to me.

[OrangeUte]

Originally Posted by FMCoug

Do they? Homosexuality is SUCH a problematic issue and my heart goes out to those who have to deal with it either personally or in their family. I have several gay friends who are LDS or former LDS and I really have no answer for them.

But the bottom line is this. Homosexual relationships are NOT in concert with the gospel. They just aren't. That has been made clear over and over. Since the family is central to the plan of Salvation, how do you reconcile homosexuality. You can't.

So how exactly do you make a place for them in the Church? Love them, support them in their rightous endeavors, etc. absolutely. But the bottom line is that they are not going to feel a part of the church with family relationships being such a big part of it.

I really have no answer. It's one of the "god will sort it all out" things to me.

your error is that nobody is asking the church to make room for them at the church with prop 8 or similar measures. the church's spin included that prop 8 was a threat to religious freedoms. however, the proposition was about allowing or disallowing them to have the same civil rights as heterosexual people who can marry. it has nothing to do with the religious beliefs or organization's rights under the first amendment.

[exUte]

Originally Posted by OrangeUte

your error is that nobody is asking the church to make room for them at the church with prop 8 or similar measures. the church's spin included that prop 8 was a threat to religious freedoms. however, the proposition was about allowing or disallowing them to have the same civil rights as heterosexual people who can marry. it has nothing to do with the religious beliefs or organization's rights under the first amendment.

Then you clearly missed the unintended consequences. If you think the gays would stop with them being married by a justice of the peace, then you are wrong. Their agenda is anti-religion because they hate religion that preaches that their behavior is deviant and against the will of God. They just don't have the critical mass to move their agenda forward......yet.