And Olmert wept.

[il Padrino Ute]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Yeah, how does anyone negotiate with someone that steals your home, economically grinds you into the ground, bombs your home, steals your water, restricts your movement, and kills your children? You know, drops white phosphorous bombs on U.N. schools serving as bomb shelters?

Both sides of his mouth. LOL. That cracks me up.

What exactly would you have the Palestinian people do? Did you hear that? That was the sound of another Israeli settlement being built in the West Bank.

I don't believe there will ever be two states. The Palestinians will never accept crumbs, and the Israelis will never offer more than crumbs. Eventually the moral weight of running an apartheid state will collapse, and Israel as an ostensibly Jewish state will collapse. And hopefully this will happen peacefully, much as Utah as a Mormon territory-nation has collapsed.

Yes. Both sides of his mouth. Why is that so difficult for you to accept?

You still seem to think the Palestinians are blameless here. Why? Perhaps if they ought to stop doing things to piss off the Israelis.

The Israelis are just as much to blame, but when terrorists attack (and they kill innocent civilians too, right?) are the Israelis supposed to do nothing? I'm waiting for you to acknowledge that both sides are to blame, but you seem hell bent on believing that it's all on Israel.

Was there ever a Palestinian state? I ask because I honestly don't know. I just know that these folks have hated each other for milleniums.

I also know that the Israelis are one of the few allies the US has in that region. If I'm forced to pick a side, I'd rather choose one that doesn't chant "death to America" as a pasttime.

[MikeWaters]

now you are using circular logic.

We provide one side with bombs, planes, and tanks, and now you are saying that because the other side holds this against us, we must back the side that likes us more?

We could easily tip that balance by backing the other side, I assure you.

How in the world does Israel running an apartheid state help the average American? It doesn't. It hurts the average American. However, because so many Americans have an emotional attachment to Israel (due to decades of support, lobbying, and one-sided media appraisals), we act against our own interests. When Israel continues to build settlements, we continue to write blank checks.

If you felt like you had been cheated and brutalized, and you had no weapons, money or power, what would you do? Throw rocks at soldiers? Check, Palestinian kids did that. And got bullets in return. The rockets and suicidal bombings and kidnappings are assymetrical warfare, based on a calculation that Israel will not commit a Rwanda-esque mass-genocide.

I don't think this is the right way to go. Palestinians should, IMHO, go the non-violent route, in the tradition of MLK and Gandhi. And expose the moral hypocrisy of Israel. Nown if I told this to the Palestinian leaders and people, I think they would say, "We already tried that. And you ignored us. How many more decades must pass?"

I am thinking that a multi-ethnic democratic state is the only eventual solution. But that will mean the end of Israel as a Jewish state. And I'm fine with that. Because I believe in multi-ethnic states where people of different beliefs live side-by-side with respect and cooperation. This idea that you can force millions of people into a ghetto, declare it a state, and have everything be fine is just not going to work.

[il Padrino Ute]

Well stated, Mike.

I agree that if one suggested that Palestine go the peaceful route they would respond that they had tried, though I personally don't believe they have or would. If they did try it, they would certainly get more support. Even from me.

It's an ugly mess and both sides share equal blame, IMO. You see it differently and that's okay.