11-07-2007, 10:21 PM | #11 |
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Suppose, hypothetically, that Warren Jeffs -- another fringe, religious zealot and self-proclaimed prophet, who became a fugitive and was ultimately incarcerated -- was killed in his jail cell tomorrow. By the definitions I'm hearing, it seems he would be no less a martyr than Joseph Smith.
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11-07-2007, 10:24 PM | #12 | |
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Jeffs is a person without political power or ability. The same cannot be said of JS.
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11-07-2007, 10:25 PM | #13 | |
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That's certainly not all there is to the question, and the value of the question is not, I think, in finding some definitive answer. For me, the value is in discovering what other questions are evoked, and in seeing how Joseph's actions do or do not fit historical criteria for martyrdom, and what Mormon's often avow about his death. Eusebius certainly didn't just throw up his hands and go, "There's no way to know their motivations or to know what caused their deaths, so the whole notion of martrydom is useless." That's a cop out.
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11-07-2007, 10:25 PM | #14 | |
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Last edited by tooblue; 11-07-2007 at 10:31 PM. |
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11-07-2007, 10:27 PM | #15 | |
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AS AA points out, I always thoguht this refernce was to the fact that he went to Carthage willingly, believing there he would be slaughtered. It does not mean at the point when the unjust murder was about to take place he lay quietly, but that before that time, and with it in his mind, perhaps in prophetic vision, he capitualted and willingly returned to Carthage. There was, I beleive, some in Nauvoo who were even willing to raise arms to protect him, and he could have escaped to at least postpone his incarceration, but instead he chose to submit. A lamb is led easily to the slaughter, but may kick a few times when the knife begins to cut.
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11-07-2007, 10:39 PM | #16 | |
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And in what sense did he have lamb like innocence? Certainly not in the charges of destroying the press. As Indy and I agreed, he was innocent of anything that would justify his murder. But I won't assert that he was innocent in the same way Jesus was innocent, which is what Mormons sometimes seem to be implying (and you certainly may not be trying to imply this).
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11-07-2007, 10:49 PM | #17 | |
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If there is no hope that a man like Joseph Smith could act as a prophet and accomplish great things, then what hope is there for you and I to serve faithfully in church callings and accomplish great things in our families and amongst a community of Saints? I am certain he is a prophet. I am certain he was martyred because of his testimony. |
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11-07-2007, 10:55 PM | #18 | ||
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11-07-2007, 11:05 PM | #19 |
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He's a martyr to the people that believed in him. That's my point. It's impossible to say conclusively whether someone was a martyr, because the label is all tied up into how esteemed the person was. Lots of people in the world think suicide bombers are martyrs.
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...You've been under attack for days, there's a soldier down, he's wounded, gangrene's setting in, 'Who's used all the penicillin?' 'Oh, Mark Paxson sir, he's got knob rot off of some tart.'" - Gareth Keenan Last edited by non sequitur; 11-07-2007 at 11:38 PM. |
11-07-2007, 11:05 PM | #20 | |
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Isn't it at least as plausible that they thought, "Let's kill the guy who started Mormonism so we can put an end to the whole thing?" Isn't it plausible that they killed him because of sectarian beliefs? There could be an important distinction in that as regarding the notion of martyr. Of course, a faithful Mormon will see much that is Mormonism as a result of Joseph's belief in Jesus, but it does not necessarily follow that that's why Joseph was killed, even if it contributed to his resolve to submit to arrest.
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"Do not despise the words of prophets, but test everything; hold fast to what is good; " 1 Thess. 5:21 (NRSV) We all trust our own unorthodoxies. |
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