George Will: pull out of Afghanistan

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

It's one thing to nation build in a place like Iraq, that has modern educated people.

It's another thing to nation build with a bunch of Asian steppe hillbillies. That was probably always a losing proposition. You can't nation build in Afghanistan unless you have a time machine that can fast-forward their cultural development by 200 years.

The fact is, they are culturally closer to the Taliban that the West. American culture might as well be an alien civilization.

You really can't win when there are no goals, or unachievable goals. Putting the heat on the Taliban and Al Qaeda is doable. Eliminating the Taliban, not so much.

You underestimate the Afghanis and remember part of your history while forgetting the rest.

Afghanistan, prior to the Soviet invasion, was very advanced for that region of the world, and only reverted to its backward ways during the Soviet war and under the Taliban, which is more a belief or interpretative system of Sharia, than a group of individuals. That's why you don't stamp it out.

With the good will present at the time, and the collective effort of the world, I think we would have had a chance then. Now we've lost two wars, gone broke in the process and keep skyrocketing our debt. This spiral is worse than it seems.

[MikeWaters]

"for that region of the world"?

that's like saying the Carters in Appalachians of West Virginia are very culturally sophisticated for that region of the word.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

"for that region of the world"?

that's like saying the Carters in Appalachians of West Virginia are very culturally sophisticated for that region of the word.

In the seventies, Afghanistan was considered very prosperous and very western until the damned Taliban showed up. I don't agree that Afghanis are inherently like unto the Taliban per se.

But it is a moot point, we have lost the will of the people and it is just a question of time before it devolves into a morass fit for Talibanis.

[Zulu451]

I have been pretty busy as of late.

I want to share some of my first hand observations about afghanistan.

1) Americans have forgotten our own history and foundation of a democratic government.
- If you read the Federalist Papers by Alexander Hamilton you will see that the founding fathers were actually very skeptical about forming a democracy. Given the abysmal track record of previous democracies, they were more in favor of a confederacy (Hence in the initial Articles of Confederation). Hamilton, in his essays, makes the argument for a democracy. His principle points are that without civic virtue, a democracy will fail and that Judeo-Christian values held by the founding fathers will provide the desire to seek the common good above that of the individual.
- Afghanistan is a tribal society. Yes, they had a pretty decent system prior to the Soviet invasion, but that was nearly 30 years ago, you now have 2 generations of people who have lived under a tribal system, essentially a lawless, system of government. They have an extreme distrust of centralized government due to rampant corruption. At least is Iraq, they were accustomed to having a centralized form of government.
- After the French helped us against the British in the Revolutionary War, they didn't stick around and try "nation building". They got out of the way to let us find our own path.

2) There is way too much corruption here in Afghanistan for the people to trust any form of centralized government.
- These people are so dirt poor. We missed our opportunity 8 years ago when we had the taliban on the run. We absolutely forgot about this place and we are still ignoring this place.
- Case in point: Just my Forward Surgical Team this past month saw more casualties that the entire Iraq theatre combined. Why are there 3 times as many troops in Iraq? Why are there 5 times the medical assets in Iraq? The local Brigade is completely unsupportive of medical humanitarian work, because they don't have the men or machines to spare.

3) We are now getting mired down in "rules of engagement" and are too scared to make people mad. Our own rules are handicapping us in the fight against the Taliban, and they know it. This only encourages them to use "human shields", and to launch rockets and mortars from school yards.

This is absolutely turning into a quagmire and there is no plan for any type of exit, anytime soon. We are planning to stick it out here for a long time. It is obvious that we want to make Afghanistan a principle operations point in the middle east for a long time to come. There needs to be a massive shift on men and material from Iraq to Afghanistan. They need to double to troop loads here, that would show the locals that they shouldn't be afraid of the Taliban and that we are committed to making this place better for them.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by Zulu451

I have been pretty busy as of late.

I want to share some of my first hand observations about afghanistan.

1) Americans have forgotten our own history and foundation of a democratic government.
- If you read the Federalist Papers by Alexander Hamilton you will see that the founding fathers were actually very skeptical about forming a democracy. Given the abysmal track record of previous democracies, they were more in favor of a confederacy (Hence in the initial Articles of Confederation). Hamilton, in his essays, makes the argument for a democracy. His principle points are that without civic virtue, a democracy will fail and that Judeo-Christian values held by the founding fathers will provide the desire to seek the common good above that of the individual.
- Afghanistan is a tribal society. Yes, they had a pretty decent system prior to the Soviet invasion, but that was nearly 30 years ago, you now have 2 generations of people who have lived under a tribal system, essentially a lawless, system of government. They have an extreme distrust of centralized government due to rampant corruption. At least is Iraq, they were accustomed to having a centralized form of government.
- After the French helped us against the British in the Revolutionary War, they didn't stick around and try "nation building". They got out of the way to let us find our own path.

2) There is way too much corruption here in Afghanistan for the people to trust any form of centralized government.
- These people are so dirt poor. We missed our opportunity 8 years ago when we had the taliban on the run. We absolutely forgot about this place and we are still ignoring this place.
- Case in point: Just my Forward Surgical Team this past month saw more casualties that the entire Iraq theatre combined. Why are there 3 times as many troops in Iraq? Why are there 5 times the medical assets in Iraq? The local Brigade is completely unsupportive of medical humanitarian work, because they don't have the men or machines to spare.

3) We are now getting mired down in "rules of engagement" and are too scared to make people mad. Our own rules are handicapping us in the fight against the Taliban, and they know it. This only encourages them to use "human shields", and to launch rockets and mortars from school yards.

This is absolutely turning into a quagmire and there is no plan for any type of exit, anytime soon. We are planning to stick it out here for a long time. It is obvious that we want to make Afghanistan a principle operations point in the middle east for a long time to come. There needs to be a massive shift on men and material from Iraq to Afghanistan. They need to double to troop loads here, that would show the locals that they shouldn't be afraid of the Taliban and that we are committed to making this place better for them.

First off, thanks for your service.

Second, thanks for taking the time to give us your viewpoint and relate your first-hand experience.

I think the support for the effort in Afghanistan is soft. But the opposition to it is soft as well. Obama pulling out of the missile shield in Eastern Europe was jarring to many conservatives. It was the first moment of "this president really just may be a weak appeaser." We saw signs of it during his "goodwill tour" but this was the first concrete action that saw us look at Russia and blink.

News of the Afghan election has been 100% negative and disconcerting. Here we are propping up a corrupt dictatorship, essentially, that has no public support, while the enemy ramps up in strength.

I hate the Taliban. If there is worse boogeyman in the world, I am not aware of it. The way they have treated women, their oppression of people in general, their destruction of art and world heritage. They represent what I consider to be the complete opposite of Western ideals.

On civilian casualties--if you never engage the enemy when they are among civilians, it encourages them to use this tactic. On the other hand, if you always attack the enemy no matter where they are, 1) you risk angering the civilians, but 2) you might get the civilians to turn against the Taliban (but the problem is perhaps they don't have the power to do so). Iraq turned when the civilians (militias) got sick of AQinIraq, and the sectarian violence. Somehow we need to get the Afghans to do the same (though I have no idea if this is possible).

[Zulu451]

From my view, granted this is a small microcosm of what is going on across the country, the local people are not convinced that we are going to be the winners of the war.

In Iraq, we started dumping so much men and material into the country that the local opposition could see the writing on the wall that the insurgency would eventually fail, and when all the dust settled they wanted to be on the side of the winner. Thus placing themselves in position to better their own causes by making good with the winners.

Here in Afghanistan the Taliban goes around and threatens the local villages that if they accept our help in building a well, medical care etc. They will cut their tounges out and do horrible things to their families. The local villages are not convinced that we can protect them, and they are not convinced that we will win this war, hence their willingness to side with the Taliban. Because if the Taliban does win, they don't want to be on the loosing end of that fight.

We need to seriously consider doubling the troop strength here in Afghanistan, showing the locals that we are committed to winning this war. Most of the locals don't like the Taliban. What they don't want is to be seen fighting against the Taliban, when and if we pull out.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by Zulu451

From my view, granted this is a small microcosm of what is going on across the country, the local people are not convinced that we are going to be the winners of the war.

In Iraq, we started dumping so much men and material into the country that the local opposition could see the writing on the wall that the insurgency would eventually fail, and when all the dust settled they wanted to be on the side of the winner. Thus placing themselves in position to better their own causes by making good with the winners.

Here in Afghanistan the Taliban goes around and threatens the local villages that if they accept our help in building a well, medical care etc. They will cut their tounges out and do horrible things to their families. The local villages are not convinced that we can protect them, and they are not convinced that we will win this war, hence their willingness to side with the Taliban. Because if the Taliban does win, they don't want to be on the loosing end of that fight.

We need to seriously consider doubling the troop strength here in Afghanistan, showing the locals that we are committed to winning this war. Most of the locals don't like the Taliban. What they don't want is to be seen fighting against the Taliban, when and if we pull out.

They are smart to believe we may be the losers.

I have a hard time seeing the democrats supporting a surge.

[Zulu451]

You read the latest on McCrystal asking for more troops, well the response from the Dept of Defense was "Don't ask right now".

It appears that our noble savior and leader is too concerned about pushing his socialist agenda to worry about the war in afghanistan.

In short, I agree with George Will. If we just going to half ass this war, then lets pull out and be done. If not, drop another 50K troops here and we can be done with this God forsaken place in 2 years.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by Zulu451

You read the latest on McCrystal asking for more troops, well the response from the Dept of Defense was "Don't ask right now".

It appears that our noble savior and leader is too concerned about pushing his socialist agenda to worry about the war in afghanistan.

In short, I agree with George Will. If we just going to half ass this war, then lets pull out and be done. If not, drop another 50K troops here and we can be done with this God forsaken place in 2 years.

I trust the DoD. The SoD was the greatest university president ever, just short of the status of a god. He would never sell out the country or the soldiers.

/typical Aggie response

You gotta feel for the average dirt-poor Afghan.

Reminds me of this quote from A Fistful of Dollars:

You mean the Mexican goverment on one side? Maybe the Americans on the other side? Me right smack in the middle? Uhn-hn. Too dangerous. So long.

Hate to be a soldier in the situation described by The Smiths:

I am the summoner.....of nothing in particular