Palestinian Right of Return

[Cali Coug]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

Is fairness some sort of a prerequisite? Don't be a chump. Their public image in the US is horrific. If they want the American people to put pressure on the American government to in turn lean on Israel to clean up their act, they are doing EVERYTHING wrong.

Do I expect them to start kissing America's butt to curry their favor? No. And thus we are where we are.

It's obvious why nothing short of Christ's return will solve this conflict. It may be morally incumbent upon us as a world to try to resolve the conflict now, but let's stop being naive here: nothing is going to work.

Your total lack of sympathy is endemic of the reasons the conflict won't be resolved anytime soon.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

Your total lack of sympathy is endemic of the reasons the conflict won't be resolved anytime soon.

Most outsiders believe or feel there are no workable solutions. I have empathy, but I can see no path solving the current problems. Eventually the Palestinians may overrun Israel and we'll see some sort of nuclear war. That is what I forecast.

[Cali Coug]

Originally Posted by BYU71

Ok, Israel does 1-4, now are they guaranteed peace???? What if the Palestinian radicals continue with their belief Israel needs to be totally vanquished.

That was my point earlier. While it doesn't appear on its face that Palestine's need for land and Israel's need for security are inherently in conflict, they are, at least in Israel's mind. If Israel gives up land, it is a new staging point for attacks against Israel. Israel invaded Lebanon to give them a buffer zone against attacks, so they view this as a very real issue.

These problems are not easily resolved, in part because the requirements of both parties are totally logical and reasonable and yet in conflict with the requirements of the other party.

I think peace can be brokered, but not without both Palestine and Israel accepting terms that make them uncomfortable (and then over time becoming convinced not to push for more).

[MikeWaters]

You have misstated it, because I adopt the Jewish position of J-Street, which rejects the conservative vision of Jewish mainstream-extremism. That's right--liking the status quo, or oppressing the Palestinians further is extremist.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

Your total lack of sympathy is endemic of the reasons the conflict won't be resolved anytime soon.

Oh, I have plenty of sympathy; however, is sympathy supposed to overwhelm all other senses and reason?

[Cali Coug]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

Oh, I have plenty of sympathy; however, is sympathy supposed to overwhelm all other senses and reason?

No- and lucky for you, in this case it doesn't have to.

[Cali Coug]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Then allow arms shipments in Palestine if you want them to stop fighting asynchronously.

If you want them to stop fighting PERIOD, then freaking come to the table and put something on it.

Waters, I am sympathetic to Palestine, but you have to understand as well that Israel DID come to the table (and has repeatedly) and has made some fairly decent offers to the Palestinians. Arafat rejected those offers (because they didn't involve Jerusalem). The Palestinians haven't been the world's most honest negotiators. This doesn't mean that Israel is totally innocent. They aren't. Both sides need to give up things that make them uncomfortable. But you are presenting this as a cut and dry issue with Palestinians totally in the right. That just isn't accurate.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

Waters, I am sympathetic to Palestine, but you have to understand as well that Israel DID come to the table (and has repeatedly) and has made some fairly decent offers to the Palestinians. Arafat rejected those offers (because they didn't involve Jerusalem). The Palestinians haven't been the world's most honest negotiators. This doesn't mean that Israel is totally innocent. They aren't. Both sides need to give up things that make them uncomfortable. But you are presenting this as a cut and dry issue with Palestinians totally in the right. That just isn't accurate.

So you are mad at Israel's offer "to take it and leave it" and saying that Palestinians are wrong to have left it?

I'd like to buy some things from you. I figure I'll get a pretty nice price.

Sheesh.

Israelis made an offer which they knew was completely untenable.

Why do the Israelis negotiate in the first place? I think because they know that the occupation is morally unsustainable. Their hands are dirty, but they don't want to pay the price to get their hands clean.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

So you are mad at Israel's offer "to take it and leave it" and saying that Palestinians are wrong to have left it?

I'd like to buy some things from you. I figure I'll get a pretty nice price.

Sheesh.

Israelis made an offer which they knew was completely untenable.

Why do the Israelis negotiate in the first place? I think because they know that the occupation is morally unsustainable. Their hands are dirty, but they don't want to pay the price to get their hands clean.

Do you really believe either party is negotiating in good faith? I don't. They prefer a Mexican standoff as that is what keeps both ruling groups in power.

[Cali Coug]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

So you are mad at Israel's offer "to take it and leave it" and saying that Palestinians are wrong to have left it?

I'd like to buy some things from you. I figure I'll get a pretty nice price.

Sheesh.

Israelis made an offer which they knew was completely untenable.

Why do the Israelis negotiate in the first place? I think because they know that the occupation is morally unsustainable. Their hands are dirty, but they don't want to pay the price to get their hands clean.

This post makes me think you don't actually understand how much the Israelis were willing to give up and how good the deal was for Palestinians. It wasn't a perfect deal, but is it even possible to define "perfect deal?" The Palestinians would be worlds better off today if they accepted.