11-07-2007, 11:07 PM | #21 | |
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"Do not despise the words of prophets, but test everything; hold fast to what is good; " 1 Thess. 5:21 (NRSV) We all trust our own unorthodoxies. |
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11-07-2007, 11:42 PM | #22 | |
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According to Frend, in ancient Christianity although some early believers were stubbornly zealous (contumacia is how Pliny describes them in Letter X .96.3), one of the primary driving forces of martyrdom was to imitate the actions of the "faithful and true witness [martyr]" (Rev. 3.14), i.e. Jesus (1984, pg. 149). His passion and death were the templates which martyrs sought to follow. Thus, they (the stouthearted at least) welcomed a chance to meekly suffer injustice as Christ had. This is where the notion of "martyrs can't fight back" springs from - since Christ did not resist or defend himself, but answered questions in a straightforward way. This is how Polycarp is portrayed in the martyrology that tells his story - as an imitation of Christ. Whether of not Joseph Smith was "innocent" is similar to asking whether or not Jesus or the early Christian martyrs were "innocent" - at least if innocence is a requirement for martyr status. Jesus' example aside, early Christians were clearly often guilty of breaking laws enacted to force Christians to sacrifice to pagan gods (e.g. the Scillitan Martyrs). The question of whether a person who defies an unjust law can be considered innocent is for the philosophers; it's at least as old as Sophocles' Antigone. Regarding the grandsons of Jude who refused to be called "martyrs," preferring instead "confessors," as found in Eusebius HE 5.2.3, http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf201.iii.x.iii.html I take it to mean they didn't consider themselves worthy to be identified with Jesus (the true martyr), perhaps because they had survived.
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I hope for nothing. I fear nothing. I am free. - Epitaph of Nikos Kazantzakis (1883-1957) Last edited by Solon; 11-07-2007 at 11:44 PM. Reason: added link to Eusebius |
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11-08-2007, 12:50 AM | #23 | |
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"Do not despise the words of prophets, but test everything; hold fast to what is good; " 1 Thess. 5:21 (NRSV) We all trust our own unorthodoxies. |
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11-08-2007, 01:31 AM | #24 | |
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I really think it was that simple for many in the mob ... just as it will be that easy for many to say; "I'm not voting for a Mormon!" |
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11-08-2007, 12:33 PM | #25 | |
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"Do not despise the words of prophets, but test everything; hold fast to what is good; " 1 Thess. 5:21 (NRSV) We all trust our own unorthodoxies. |
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11-08-2007, 12:52 PM | #26 |
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11-08-2007, 01:36 PM | #27 | |
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11-08-2007, 01:45 PM | #28 | |
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If we can agree that there may be many people who will not vote for Romney simply because he is Mormon, then we can come to an agreement that many in the mob participated in the murder simply because Jospeh Smith was a Mormon. This is in part a question of motivation. Honestly, the probing in this thread gives the average person far too much intellectual credit. They were a mob! A mob does not think, a mob acts … that’s what makes a mob so dangerous! Last edited by tooblue; 11-08-2007 at 08:26 PM. |
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11-09-2007, 07:33 PM | #29 |
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I've heard but I've got nothing to back it up that the prophet was killed by Masons who were upset with Joseph using part of their ceremony for the temple and for marrying one of their wives. If true it makes his death look a little less stoic but really doesn't change anything else.
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