11-10-2009, 06:21 PM | #21 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,596
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Your premise is apparently that the joy Lehi referred to is inextricably tied to sex. You may even think of it as an automatic byproduct. That doesn't square with the gospel, in my opinion. Clearly it is taught that pre-marital, extra-marital, or homosexual sex is wickedness. It is sin. And one cannot commit sin, and feel joy. I repeat: a forever-single person will experience more joy in abstinence than in physically satisfying but spiritually empty violations of chastity. That it is "natural and instinctive" is a nonsense argument. We are to put off the natural man and deny ourselves of ungodliness. PS. This argument does not change regardless of whether we're talking heterosexual or homosexual.
__________________
"Have we been commanded not to call a prophet an insular racist? Link?" "And yes, [2010] is a very good year to be a Democrat. Perhaps the best year in decades ..." - Cali Coug "Oh dear, granny, what a long tail our puss has got." - Brigham Young |
|||
11-10-2009, 07:42 PM | #22 | ||
Assistant to the Regional Manager
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Orgasmatron
Posts: 24,338
|
Quote:
Joy in this life is premised upon several factors. For me this is a fully joyful existence, and the deletion of any of these factors reduces my joy. Physical health, mental health, having an active mind and body, having a sense of purpose, having a loving companion with whom I share the fullness of loving affections and expressions, family and friends, and objectives to be accomplished, and subjects to be learned. If you delete the ability or the option of having a loving companion, I would always be incomplete and lack a significant aspect of joy. It is odd how you are unwilling to personalize any argument. It is almost as if you are incomplete. And I reject this conclusory statement: Quote:
Secondly, once you have partaken of the fruit of relations, a forever-single will experience no joy in the act or process of abstinence just denial which one imposes upon oneself hoping for some intangible reward in the hereafter.
__________________
Ἓν οἶδα ὅτι οὐδὲν οἶδα Last edited by Archaea; 11-10-2009 at 07:45 PM. |
||
11-10-2009, 10:49 PM | #23 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,596
|
Quote:
There are any number of wholly righteous desires that are denied by the Father in the course of mortality. Ask just about any living human. Joy in mortality is best achieved via the pursuit of becoming like the Savior Jesus Christ, in spite of temporal shortcomings. Quote:
Unless it's the joy of being obedient.
__________________
"Have we been commanded not to call a prophet an insular racist? Link?" "And yes, [2010] is a very good year to be a Democrat. Perhaps the best year in decades ..." - Cali Coug "Oh dear, granny, what a long tail our puss has got." - Brigham Young |
||
11-10-2009, 11:43 PM | #24 | |
Assistant to the Regional Manager
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Orgasmatron
Posts: 24,338
|
Quote:
Oh joy. I can imagine Kim Il Jong's followers relish in being obedient. Leaders want obedience, followers need compassion and understanding.
__________________
Ἓν οἶδα ὅτι οὐδὲν οἶδα |
|
11-11-2009, 12:04 AM | #25 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,484
|
Archaea and Tex, this has been a very nice exchange, and you have both represented your sides well.
The idea of "joy" being the purpose of life is fairly modern concept -- at least in the Christian world. For centuries, "joy" was to bear the cross -- joy was to suffer for Christ. Indulgence of fleshly passions was pleasurable, but antithetical to joy. Lehi's statement is a challenge to a long line of western Christian thought, depending on how it's interpreted. There are several vexing questions for those who adhere to the hard line that breaking the commandments inexorably leads to unhappiness: (1) the mother who is miserable b/c she stays at home v. the mother who is joyful b/c she works (2) the 40-year old virgin who is tormented by his sexual urges v. the 40-year old who has sex in a loving, committed relationship outside the bonds of marriage (3) the homosexual man who is tormented by his sexual urges v. the homosexual man who has gay sex in a loving, committed relationship It's not so simple to break it down into an either or, but in order to find any sense in the "joy = righteousness" and "misery = sin" pairings, you have to define joy to equal "the joy that comes from obedience; joy is to suffer for Christ." How else to account for the Savior's startling comment to the Nephites that it is better to bear one's cross (said in the context of a sermon on sexual sin) than to be thrust down to hell. One other requirement for these pairings to work: you have to believe! If the 40-year old virgin believes, then breaking the law of chastity -- while giving a moment of indescribably intense pleasure -- will cause heartbreaking spiritual pain (at least the first few times he does it until he gets "past feeling"). But for those who don't believe, sex outside the bonds of marriage can be a source of intense pleasure and intense joy.
__________________
"Now I say that I know the meaning of my life: 'To live for God, for my soul.' And this meaning, in spite of its clearness, is mysterious and marvelous. Such is the meaning of all existence." Levin, Anna Karenina, Part 8, Chapter 12 Last edited by Levin; 11-11-2009 at 12:10 AM. |
11-11-2009, 12:16 AM | #26 | |
Assistant to the Regional Manager
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Orgasmatron
Posts: 24,338
|
Quote:
__________________
Ἓν οἶδα ὅτι οὐδὲν οἶδα |
|
11-11-2009, 12:19 AM | #27 | |
Assistant to the Regional Manager
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Orgasmatron
Posts: 24,338
|
Quote:
How does one explain the believer who feels the joy of the Spirit, yet experiences joy in what is supposed to be a sinful relationship?
__________________
Ἓν οἶδα ὅτι οὐδὲν οἶδα |
|
11-11-2009, 12:51 AM | #28 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,484
|
Quote:
Surely the most intense spiritual pain is felt by those who most intensely believe. I don't really care whether it's culturally acquired: point is you believed something, but you acted contrarily, and now you feel the emotional aftershocks of that decision. But even if you believe, you can get past that initial emotional pain: by doing it over and over. The "past feeling" reference is to the description of Laman and Lemual who no longer recognize the Spirit b/c they are past feeling. The first time someone sins against their conscience, then the pain can be acute. But the more you sin, the less acute the pain, until you no longer feel it anymore. I suspect that the same is true of sexual sin.
__________________
"Now I say that I know the meaning of my life: 'To live for God, for my soul.' And this meaning, in spite of its clearness, is mysterious and marvelous. Such is the meaning of all existence." Levin, Anna Karenina, Part 8, Chapter 12 |
|
11-11-2009, 12:56 AM | #29 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,484
|
Quote:
And obedience likewise has its own rewards for the believer -- rewards of conscience, and companionship of the Spirit. The question is which rewards are more valuable. The traditional Christian would say the rewards of the Spirit, and anyway, this life is for suffering; await your eternal reward ("better to bear your cross than to be thrust down to hell"). To those who don't believe, it's an easy, easy choice.
__________________
"Now I say that I know the meaning of my life: 'To live for God, for my soul.' And this meaning, in spite of its clearness, is mysterious and marvelous. Such is the meaning of all existence." Levin, Anna Karenina, Part 8, Chapter 12 |
|
11-11-2009, 01:17 AM | #30 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,596
|
Quote:
God wants both.
__________________
"Have we been commanded not to call a prophet an insular racist? Link?" "And yes, [2010] is a very good year to be a Democrat. Perhaps the best year in decades ..." - Cali Coug "Oh dear, granny, what a long tail our puss has got." - Brigham Young |
|
Bookmarks |
|
|