How much work does it take to receive exaltation?

[aaronshaf]

"all we can do."

Church leadership has been pretty consistent and public with a definition of what this phrase means. Allow me to point you to an article where I discuss this:

http://www.mormonwiki.org/2_Nephi_25:23

Notice how the neo-orthodox folks are taking it.

[SoonerCoug]

Originally Posted by aaronshaf

Church leadership has been pretty consistent and public with a definition of what this phrase means. Allow me to point you to an article where I discuss this:

http://www.mormonwiki.org/2_Nephi_25:23

Notice how the neo-orthodox folks are taking it.

Be gone with you.

Seattle has credibility. You don't.

Once you try being a Mormon for a few years, then you can talk.

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by aaronshaf

Church leadership has been pretty consistent and public with a definition of what this phrase means. Allow me to point you to an article where I discuss this:

http://www.mormonwiki.org/2_Nephi_25:23

Notice how the neo-orthodox folks are taking it.

Church leaders are a couple generations behind the neo-orthodox writers. The church moves slowly but it's going in the right direction. It will probably be my kids' generation that finally gets it right.

[SoonerCoug]

Originally Posted by jay santos

Church leaders are a couple generations behind the neo-orthodox writers. The church moves slowly but it's going in the right direction. It will probably be my kids' generation that finally gets it right.

The biggest problem with Shaf is that he just doesn't quite *get* it.

Mormonism is way more complicated than his brain can handle. It's a complex theology, whereas his theology is plain and simple: the Bible is the perfect, unadulterated word of God.

Mormonism is a dynamic religion, and that confuses him.

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by SoonerCoug

The biggest problem with Shaf is that he just doesn't quite *get* it.

Mormonism is way more complicated than his brain can handle. It's a complex theology, whereas his theology is plain and simple: the Bible is the perfect, unadulterated word of God.

Mormonism is a dynamic religion, and that confuses him.

He doesn't get it, but he has more to offer than people here give him credit for. When he does provide analysis, it's not that bad, though it's been rare. If he can be more respectful and provide more of his own analysis, he can have a place here.

[SoonerCoug]

Originally Posted by jay santos

He doesn't get it, but he has more to offer than people here give him credit for. When he does provide analysis, it's not that bad, though it's been rare. If he can be more respectful and provide more of his own analysis, he can have a place here.

I just have a problem with people who analyze and/or ridicule Mormon theology without even attempting to understand what drives Mormonism.

I don't believe Mormonism is driven by appeal of its theology as much as it's driven by appeal of its values and the virtues that it promotes. In other words, there is a "Mormon life," and most people choose to believe (or gain "testimonies" of) the theology because the "Mormon life" brings fulfillment.

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by SoonerCoug

I just have a problem with people who analyze and/or ridicule Mormon theology without even attempting to understand what drives Mormonism.

I don't believe Mormonism is driven by appeal of its theology as much as it's driven by appeal of its values and the virtues that it promotes. In other words, there is a "Mormon life," and most people choose to believe (or gain "testimonies" of) the theology because the "Mormon life" brings fulfillment.

Well considering most Mormons would disagree with you on that, you ought to cut some slack to a non-believer to not view it like that.

[SoonerCoug]

Originally Posted by jay santos

Well considering most Mormons would disagree with you on that, you ought to cut some slack to a non-believer to not view it like that.

That's my analysis of Mormons and their behavior. And I think most Mormons would agree with me subconsciously. It's like people who link their politics with religion. People will defend their politics by using religion.

Same goes for Mormon theology and Mormon lifestyle/culture. People will defend the theology because they inseparably link it to the lifestyle/culture. Since it's not a conscious decision, it doesn't matter whether most Mormons agree with me or not.

My point is that if Aaron Shaf actually gave a sincere shot at putting himself in Mormon shoes, he might be more sympathetic to what he views as problems in the theology.

Lastly, Aaron should spend more time worrying about how Jonah survived in the belly of the whale rather than analyzing what "all you can do" really means. "All you can do" is the least of his problems, since he lacks flexibility in Biblical interpretation.

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by SoonerCoug

That's my analysis of Mormons and their behavior. And I think most Mormons would agree with me subconsciously. It's like people who link their politics with religion. People will defend their politics by using religion.

Same goes for Mormon theology and Mormon lifestyle/culture. People will defend the theology because they inseparably link it to the lifestyle/culture. Since it's not a conscious decision, it doesn't matter whether most Mormons agree with me or not.

My point is that if Aaron Shaf actually gave a sincere shot at putting himself in Mormon shoes, he might be more sympathetic to what he views as problems in the theology.

Lastly, Aaron should spend more time worrying about how Jonah survived in the belly of the whale rather than analyzing what "all you can do" really means. "All you can do" is the least of his problems, since he lacks flexibility in Biblical interpretation.

But, since subconsiously AShaf believes what he does for cultural reasons, it makes no difference whether Johah really survived the whale, right? So you should lay off.

You just trumped all religious debate. Your underlying assumption is that none of it's true (can of worms that definition but let's just use a definition Tex would use for it), so there's no point in arguing the truth of any religion. Everyone believes, at least subconciously, for behavioral/cultural reasons.

You may believe that for yourself, and you have at least one guy Seattle Ute in your corner. But you're selling a lot of people short who do believe there is absolute truth.

[SoonerCoug]

Originally Posted by jay santos

But, since subconsiously AShaf believes what he does for cultural reasons, it makes no difference whether Johah really survived the whale, right? So you should lay off.

You just trumped all religious debate. Your underlying assumption is that none of it's true (can of worms that definition but let's just use a definition Tex would use for it), so there's no point in arguing the truth of any religion. Everyone believes, at least subconciously, for behavioral/cultural reasons.

You may believe that for yourself, and you have at least one guy Seattle Ute in your corner. But you're selling a lot of people short who do believe there is absolute truth.

I believe in absolute truth, too. At least I hope for it. I'm just saying that debate over doctrinal details is often silly, and I believe that culture drives most of that debate.

What's great about Mormonism is that Shaf's butt can still end up in the celestial kingdom, while in his view, all of our butts are going straight to hell. In my opinion, this is where the Christianity of Mormonism wins the day.