What does it mean to "confess and forsake" sin?

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by jay santos

There is an important distinction here, though. Protecting the church and congregation is different than obtaining forgiveness. One can be forgiven of sin and worthy in the eyes of the Lord but still have a debt to pay for the consequences of sin.

That's a meaningful distinction, but beating a sinner who is already paying a heavy price seems barbaric, and very medieval of us.

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by Adam

I don't think so. There is never repentance without sorrow for sins. That sorrow must happen for the heart to be changed.

Sometimes the scripture story comes in right at the end and you don't see the full sorrow period. Sometimes the scripture covers only the beginning period and you only see the desire to repent take hold.

But there is never a real repentance without real sorrow for your sins. This sorrow is in proportion to the gravity of the sin and can be quite literally the buffetings of Satan.

I believe the depth and length of the sorrow/suffering is in relation to one's understanding of the atonement--the better the understanding the deeper the sorrow/suffering and the shorter the time spent suffering.

Lehi, Nephi, Enoch, Alma Sr, Alma Jr, Sons of Mosiah, Corianton, Paul, woman in sin in NT, woman who washes Jesus' hair, Peter denying Christ

Every single one of these repented and forgiveness appeared to be immediate. There may have been a mandatory wait period or church court or church discipline involved that the scriptures bypassed, but isn't it odd that we don't get any of that part of the story for any of them?

Certainly sorrow and suffering for sin is an important step in repentance. But there is no scriptural foundation that there is a suggested time period for it.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by jay santos

By definition.

The question is why is church discipline necessary, i.e. putting mandatory wait periods to obtain forgiveness of sin, when in the scriptures it appears to happen immediately for many. Your answer is that repentance for serious sin takes a very long time BECAUSE discipline is involved. Very nice.

I'm not sure the "immediate forgiveness" is a fair reading of scripture. If you'd like to discuss examples, we can.

The D&C 58 scripture says, "by this ye may know." In other words, "because you cannot climb into a man's heart and head to know what he's thinking and feeling, here's the outward way to know if he has really repented." Thus, a time frame is set up for a person who has committed serious sin to demonstrate that they've truly forsaken it.

Does forgiveness (which only comes from God) sometimes come in the interim? Sure. But, as I quoted earlier, because we cannot always judge the righteous from the wicked, or who is sincere and who isn't, time frames provide one tool (of many) to judge a person's worthiness and sincerity.

Originally Posted by jay santos

Does your wife fall for this kind of logic or does she see through your BS?

She doesn't usually have a lot to say after I've finished beating her.

Originally Posted by Adam

I don't think so. There is never repentance without sorrow for sins. That sorrow must happen for the heart to be changed.

Sometimes the scripture story comes in right at the end and you don't see the full sorrow period. Sometimes the scripture covers only the beginning period and you only see the desire to repent take hold.

But there is never a real repentance without real sorrow for your sins. This sorrow is in proportion to the gravity of the sin and can be quite literally the buffetings of Satan.

I believe the depth and length of the sorrow/suffering is in relation to one's understanding of the atonement--the better the understanding the deeper the sorrow/suffering and the shorter the time spent suffering.

I agree with all but the last sentence. I'm not sure the level of understanding of the atonement has anything at all to do with the duration of suffering.

[All-American]

Two observations:

1. My first inclination when reading Aaron's post was to find something in it by which I should be offended-- and truth be told, I didn't find it. Good posts, Aaron.

2. I am constantly surprised by how simple the process of repentance is designed to be. The Greek word that we translate as repentance is "metanoia", which Elder Nelson referred to in his last general conference talk. The two roots of the word are "meta," a prefix often connoting change (such as in "metamorphosis," to change shape), and "noia," which is "mind." Repentance is literally changing one's mind from an attitude of sin to an attitude of obedience. It seems remarkable to me how much simpler this process is than our typical idea of what is required by repentance. Not many would feel that an individual has fully repented who says, "I used to sin, but I changed my mind."

The process laid out by the Lord seems to be just that simple: confession, which means one acknowledges that the behavior was inconsistent with the Lord's commandments, and forsaking, which means leaving those behaviors behind. It is such a simple doctrine.

For some reason, when confronted by something that is simple though difficult, we tend to make it easier and more complex. The Lord gave two steps for repentance: confess, forsake. We have made it into a seven step process via the infamous "Seven R's of Repentance." We've now made the process of repentance much more complex, but each step is easier; nevertheless, I wonder how many reach the seventh R and truly feel that they have repented. (Incidentally, I noticed that Elder Nelson tried to merge the R's into D&C 58:43, as though he were trying to shift attention from the former into the latter.)

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by Adam

We all know the person who couldn't let go and forgive themselves and thus prolonged their suffering or similarly couldn't believe that Christ could ever forgive and love them so wallow in the hell they are going through needlessly.

Yes, these are the people that Tex counsels.

[BYU71]

I have watched this discussion with some interest. I will admit I get lost from time to time. As I see the discussion go on though I am becoming more and more convinced there is the spiritual and the temporal within the church.

Hopefully I can explain. Let's say someone has a 1 year waiting period. It is the standard waiting period. Let's say in the perfect world the Lord was running things and he said, wait Joe has truly repented, I have forgiven him. Get his paperwork ready, he is back in right now.

Do you honestly think if Joe dies during the 1 year waiting period it will affect him one bit in the hereafter. Do you think the Lord is going to say, dang Joe I forgave you but you were in that one year waiting period so you aren't going to get the blessings that you would have if you were back in.

This whole discussion is about temporal things, waiting periods, etc. IMHO

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Adam

I think it does because the suffering lingers longer when we don't forgive ourselves or believe that Christ can forgive us. When a person understands the atonement they forgive themselves and accept Christ's love more fully more quickly and the suffering ends sooner.

We all know the person who couldn't let go and forgive themselves and thus prolonged their suffering or similarly couldn't believe that Christ could ever forgive and love them so wallow in the hell they are going through needlessly.

But the other side of that coin is the depth of suffering is in proportion to the understanding of the wrongness of the sin. Understanding means deeper sorrow.

I agree that understanding means deeper sorrow, but I'm not sure that shortens the period of suffering. Sometimes despite our contrition, the Lord requires a period of suffering anyway, perhaps as a natural consequence of our behavior, perhaps to school us and teach us, or perhaps for other reasons.

All-American makes some great points about what repentance really means. It's change ... in fact, that's quite literally the German word for it. Umkehr means to "turn around" ... the exact same word you'd use for a U-turn.

A great example of what a repentant person truly feels is in Mosiah 5:2, the famous "mighty change." "We have no more disposition to do evil, but to do good continually." It's not just cessation of sin, but taking a step forward toward godliness.

[aaronshaf]

"Repentance is inseparable from time. No on can repent on the cross, nor in prison, nor in custody." - Spencer W. Kimball

“Your Heavenly Father has promised forgiveness upon total repentance and meeting all the requirements [i.e. the six steps he lays out], but that forgiveness is not granted merely for the asking. There must be works—many works—and an all-out, total surrender, with a great humility and ‘a broken heart and a contrite spirit.’ It depends upon you whether or not you are forgiven, and when. It could he weeks, it could he years, it could be centuries before that happy day when you have the positive assurance that the Lord has forgiven you. That depends on your humility your sincerity, your works, your attitudes” (Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, p.324-325).

Someone mentioned the 7 R's. Where can I read more about that? What are the seven R's?

[YOhio]

Originally Posted by aaronshaf

What are the seven R's?

Rplease Rstop Rbothering Rus Rand Rgo Rhome.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by aaronshaf

Someone mentioned the 7 R's. Where can I read more about that? What are the seven R's?

As we are not a creedal church, those declarations by an apostle, while perhaps persuasive, are not doctrinal in the purest sense.

This is hard for religionists who come from a historical perspective, where the ancient theologians defined and define their religion, to the denigration of the present. In a living church, there will always be refinements, rejections, redefinitions and realizations that open up new meanings.