Since the transsexual topic came up over There

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

Nonsense. Junk science. Is this what you think is genuine intellectualism (as opposed to pseudo-intellectualism)? What empirical evidence do you have for this sweeping assertion?

Indeed, your vignette in the last paragraph of your post can't be read any other way than as a contradiction of these assertions.

[Robin]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

Nonsense. Junk science. Is this what you think is genuine intellectualism (as opposed to pseudo-intellectualism)? What empirical evidence do you have for this sweeping assertion?

What the freak are you saying? You sound like a grape-fus-nodite.

[tooblue]

Let's not confuse gender or sex with sexuality!

Furthermore, it's unwise to fit every living soul into a category. However for practical purposes the gender of the majority of individuals in the world are either Male or Female. Their gender corresponds to their sex, sex being determined by plumbing.

Complex human behavior is too varied across all cultures to be assigned to one gender verses another.

[Robin]

Originally Posted by tooblue

Let's not confuse gender or sex with sexuality!

Furthermore, it's unwise to fit every living soul into a category. However for practical purposes the gender of the majority of individuals in the world are either Male or Female. Their gender corresponds to their sex, sex being determined by plumbing.

Complex human behavior is too varied across all cultures to be assigned to one gender verses another.

For a vast majority of people their sex is either male or female, but GENDER varies a lot more.

Are you 'masculine' or 'feminine'? Most men have plenty of 'feminine' characteristics and interests, and vice versa for girls. Gender is extremely fluid, and varies drastically from culture to culture.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by Robin

For a vast majority of people their sex is either male or female, but GENDER varies a lot more.

Are you 'masculine' or 'feminine'? Most men have plenty of 'feminine' characteristics and interests, and vice versa for girls. Gender is extremely fluid, and varies drastically from culture to culture.

I wonder if most gays agree with you in this. Using the word "bigot" in reference to a critic of gays as you tend to do (I'm on record as very much in favor of granting gays equal access to marriage, etc.) pre-supposes that being gay is an immutable characteristic. I believe it is (for reasons I won't go into here), and I think that such an assumption must underlie the whole gay rights movement. Now I don't deny that it may be possible for an immutable characteristic to arise partially from environmental factors. But if gays want the same status as women and/or blacks in receiving the protection of our laws as a special class, I think logically it must be their position that a biological component is at the heart of what makes them gay. I think most gays would agree with me. I know Andrew Sullivan, my favorite gay pundit and gay rights advocate, does (I cite him because I've never discussed this issue per se with a gay person). While not DIRECTLY on point, your reducing gender to merely a matter of being a product of environmental inputs such as what makes one Republican or Catholic certainly seems to undercut this fundamental premise of the gay rights movement. Fortunately for gays, all you have on your side is faith and conviction, certainly not reason. Again, if you disagree please give us evidence that supports your subversive assertion. Again, your own vignette above flies in the face of what you assert, it seems to me.

[tooblue]

Originally Posted by Robin

For a vast majority of people their sex is either male or female, but GENDER varies a lot more.

Are you 'masculine' or 'feminine'? Most men have plenty of 'feminine' characteristics and interests, and vice versa for girls. Gender is extremely fluid, and varies drastically from culture to culture.

We are talking about gender as defined in the dictionary as:

1. Sexual identity, especially in relation to society or culture.
2. The condition of being female or male; sex.
3. Females or males considered as a group: expressions used by one gender.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by tooblue

We are talking about gender as defined in the dictionary as:

1. Sexual identity, especially in relation to society or culture.
2. The condition of being female or male; sex.
3. Females or males considered as a group: expressions used by one gender.

Thank you. I think this was the point of the cartoon that il Pardrino posted in another thread that engendered a great deal of invective and derition from Robin--special interest groups' appropriating language for their own agenda. All special interest groups do it, right and left. I don't think the practice can be condemned or approved in general, but only addressed on a case by case basis. But none other than Orwell had something negative to say about the practice in his brilliant 1984 passage descsribing "Newspeak."

[Robin]

Originally Posted by tooblue

We are talking about gender as defined in the dictionary as:

1. Sexual identity, especially in relation to society or culture.
2. The condition of being female or male; sex.
3. Females or males considered as a group: expressions used by one gender.

I realize there a different meanings for the terms 'sex' and 'gender.' I am not advancing any arguments here. I am simply pointing out that in certain accademic circles, these words have more nuanced meanings than a typical dictionary might suggest. The nuance helps people discuss ideas better. It is like having a word for 'salty' or 'bitter.' You can try to describe the sensation of saltiness, but it sure is nice to simply have a word to all of the heavy lifting.

Since you are talking about sex and gender, I simply offered the more nuance definitions as a tool for the conversation. No argument advanced.

[Robin]

Originally Posted by tooblue

We are talking about gender as defined in the dictionary as:

1. Sexual identity, especially in relation to society or culture.
2. The condition of being female or male; sex.
3. Females or males considered as a group: expressions used by one gender.

I will also point out that the FIRST definition you offer is essentially what I said when I first described the more nuanced meaning of 'gender' in the social sciences.

[Robin]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

Thank you. I think this was the point of the cartoon that il Pardrino posted in another thread that engendered a great deal of invective and derition from Robin--special interest groups' appropriating language for their own agenda. All special interest groups do it, right and left. I don't think the practice can be condemned or approved in general, but only addressed on a case by case basis. But none other than Orwell had something negative to say about the practice in his brilliant 1984 passage descsribing "Newspeak."

This cracks me up. Words are tools. In everyday language, a term like 'gender' might have a very simple, blunt meaning. For people who spend their life teasing out the implications of social trends on individual sexaul identity, they have taken your blunt word and sharpened it to have a scalpel edge. In a conversation about the deeper meaning of sex and gender in society today, I hand you a scalpel, and you respond, "Tools!
Who are you to bring in your fancy tool with its fancy tool agenda." The tool has no agenda. If you don't recognize that concepts of masculine and feminine (gender rather than sex) vary widely across social and cultural boundaries, then you are stupid. If you don't think that it would be useful to have specific language to help explore those differences, then you are ignorant.