Poll: What form of church discipline do I deserve?

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Levin

Only defense you've given of exing a penitent person is that it will help him forsake the sin. I think kicking someone out of an organization is more likely to cause that person to desist from living by that organization's standards than by keeping him in the organization. Why do you think differently?

I already explained why I think differently. I recognize you disagree--we knew that from the beginning.

I don't deny that some members--maybe even truly repentant ones--may react that way to excommunication. Some do, and some don't. But that certainly isn't a given, and the option ought to remain open to the imperfect brethren who must make the call, because there are potential benefits that can come thereby.

Do I have empirical evidence to prove how a person is more likely to react one way or the other? No. This is why we have the scriptures, handbook guidelines, and the Spirit.

[Levin]

Originally Posted by Tex

This is why we have the scriptures, handbook guidelines, and the Spirit.

I don't know if there can be any prophylactics in this area, which is why the scriptures and spirit are the key, I agree. But it seems strange to even go through the disciplinary court process for a penitent person. I like to imagine the sinner touching the Savior's robe, and being told simply that by faith the sinner was made whole. The current disciplinary process seems to me to be overwrought.

Perhaps the multilayers and multiple formal meetings are there to protect against renegade Bishops who want to ex all Sunstone subscribers?

[Archaea]

Ex'ing is punitive and demonstrates the power and authority of the leadership over the masses.

It is also a threat to those who have not sinned, "sin not, else you fall into this poor sap's lot."

I see benefit to it, for those who wish to remain. Stripping one of temple and sacrament privileges is a way to withhold church "blesssings" whiile keeping them in our midst. It is a sorry state of affairs, but one which those of us who disagree will never win.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Levin

I don't know if there can be any prophylactics in this area, which is why the scriptures and spirit are the key, I agree. But it seems strange to even go through the disciplinary court process for a penitent person. I like to imagine the sinner touching the Savior's robe, and being told simply that by faith the sinner was made whole. The current disciplinary process seems to me to be overwrought.

Not to split hairs, but you're reaching with that scripture reference. Those made whole by touching the Savior's hem were afflicted with physical maladies, not necessarily guilty of committing serious sin.

I prefer the comparison of the woman at Simon's with the woman taken in adultery. Both women received mercy, compassion, and were not condemned, but only one heard the words, "Thy sins are forgiven." The other, taken "in the very act," instead received a charge to "sin no more."

A disciplinary council, of course, has no power to absolve sins. It instead only judges standing within the church, and sometimes it is appropriate to dissolve that relationship in the hope of one day restoring it.

But permit me to play devil's advocate for a moment and think about the alternative. What if the handbook were to say, "penitent men should not be excommunicated"? Could that not lead to increased feigned penitence to avoid the consequences of their actions? There are some who already do. Such a policy would not only encourage such behavior, but weaken the power of discernment that belongs to the office of stake president. It may well tie the hands of priesthood leaders from an option that may well help a person fully repent.

Again, this all boils down to whether excommunication is meant as a retributive, punitive act. Your position only makes sense if one views it in that light.

Originally Posted by Levin

Perhaps the multilayers and multiple formal meetings are there to protect against renegade Bishops who want to ex all Sunstone subscribers?

While abuses do sometimes happen, my impression is that most men prefer to err on the side of the transgressor.

Thanks. I'm just now getting to read these. I should have mentioned in the OP that I'm a sometime poster on this board using a different name for this post. You know, it's important to retain anonymity, even on a board where I was already anonymous.

[MikeWaters]

BigSinner, for your information, an admin of a vbulletin board and occasionally others like mods can see IP addresses and then compare them against other accounts. This is a tool used to combat shenanigans (like for example someone who has been banned but tries to return under a different account).

I did not look to see if you were someone else, and will not. Because, frankly, I don't want to know. But now that you have gotten your answer, I could delete your account without comparing IP addresses, thus eliminating the theoretical possibility that I (or someone else in the future) could see what your other account is.

I say this in the thread for everyone to understand how the system works.

[8ballrollin]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

BigSinner, for your information, an admin of a vbulletin board and occasionally others like mods can see IP addresses and then compare them against other accounts. This is a tool used to combat shenanigans (like for example someone who has been banned but tries to return under a different account).

I did not look to see if you were someone else, and will not. Because, frankly, I don't want to know. But now that you have gotten your answer, I could delete your account without comparing IP addresses, thus eliminating the theoretical possibility that I (or someone else in the future) could see what your other account is.

I say this in the thread for everyone to understand how the system works.

Thanks for making that public. It was my first thought when he semi-outted himself - "I bet he doesn't know people (i.e. admins) can see his IP." Not that you would use it nefariously. It's good you explained to him and that you deleted the account.

[MikeWaters]

I haven't deleted his account. I'm offering to.

If you want to delete the account now that I've posed the question, please do.

I figured admins would see my IP and be able to do the math. And, my other account is still anonymous. I just wanted people to know I'm not some random stranger asking this question, while avoiding people making tasteless remarks when I contribute to other discussion topics.

Thanks for your concern.

[MikeWaters]

The account has been deleted. But I need to go a step further. I need to delete all of Bigsinner's posts to eliminate the IP trail.