I need help with this one

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by nuclearunderpants

...an intellectually stimulating environment for its members.

I could never attend a religion that demans me to put my head in the sand

The most ironic statement ever on this board. Why do you think Sleeping in EQ calls himself that?

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

I still say the LDS Church is behind these "studies."

It's a global conspiracy.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

There's the SeattleUte we all know and love.

You personally baptized hundreds? Now, that sounds like bullshit data.

When I was in Ecuador six in a month was the minimum. Like a .500 season. 20 in a month was like a 20 win season in basketball. All the ZL's were expected to do it.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by nuclearunderpants

.not saying I'm intellectual though.

Seemingly not.

[RC Vikings]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

When I was in Ecuador six in a month was the minimum. Like a .500 season. 20 in a month was like a 20 win season in basketball. All the ZL's were expected to do it.

Only a ZL, you sound more like an AP.

[Cali Coug]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

The LDS Church did or somehow sponsored the studies. One of the things it does well is develop and diseminate bullshit data. Regardless, the data is bullshit. This is like saying there are 11 million members. Right. I personally baptized hundreds of them, 99% of whom I'm sure are inactive. Let me ask you this: Where is there a 76% activity rate, or even a 41% activity rate? Nowhere. The activity rates certainly are not this high worldwide. That's prima facie evidence the data is cooked.

Another factor is that the Church does a good job of enmeshing talented people in its social structure and culture, so that after a point apostasy means economic and social catastrophe. That's the case in Utah and Southern Idaho, anyway, which is still where the back bone and nerve center of the Church resides.

The church also is the one that publishes activity rates. Maybe those are cooked and the activity rates are actually sky high?



I don't think these numbers are made up. In fact, it correlates with my personal experience as a church member. MOST members in every ward I have ever been in were college graduates. Many had degrees beyond undergraduate degrees. Of those who I have home taught who were inactive, few were ever college graduates. I don't have a good explanation for why that is, but the principle behind the study (that Mormons tend to be more active if they have more of an education) is, in my personal experience, absolutely true (and I have been in wards in the church in 3 countries and multiple states).

Even if the numbers are high (and I have no reason to think they are) the principle behind the numbers appears to me to be absolutely true.

As far as the activity numbers go, there is no reason to think they "have to be cooked" simply because they say that 76% of college graduates are active Mormons. Most members are not college graduates. I am assuming the statistics were only reflecting US numbers. In the US, activity rates overall are MUCH higher than outside the US. Given that more individuals in the church are not college graduates, and that less than half of them appear to be active (from the study cited), it is easy to believe that of the remaining number, over 2/3 are active. Losing half of the non-college graduates and about a quarter of the college graduates and above could easily be an accurate reflection of church retention rates in the US.

[myboynoah]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

The LDS Church did or somehow sponsored the studies. One of the things it does well is develop and diseminate bullshit data. Regardless, the data is bullshit. This is like saying there are 11 million members. Right. I personally baptized hundreds of them, 99% of whom I'm sure are inactive. Let me ask you this: Where is there a 76% activity rate, or even a 41% activity rate? Nowhere. The activity rates certainly are not this high worldwide. That's prima facie evidence the data is cooked.

Another factor is that the Church does a good job of enmeshing talented people in its social structure and culture, so that after a point apostasy means economic and social catastrophe. That's the case in Utah and Southern Idaho, anyway, which is still where the back bone and nerve center of the Church resides.

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

All the litigators here know that these types of statistics are always suspect, can easily be skewed, or sliced and diced in ways that serve various ends, and given time to conduct background investigation cross-exmaining the author of such stidies can be like shooting clay pigeon. It's like when NOW says most Americans support abortion rights. I still say the LDS Church is behind these "studies."

Do you mind putting something concrete behind all this smoke?

The idea that Utah and Southern Idaho run deep with highly educated closet apostate Mormons fearful of the economic and social catastrophe that awaits them should they opt out is very quaint. But do you honestly believe it? Seems to me that if one is fool enough to be cowed into activity out of fear, then one is surely fool enough to continue to believe religious superstitions no matter the education level.

They're educated, they believe, and they're active. Why?

Quite simply because it works for them.

[nuclearunderpants]

The lesson manuals at church leave a lot to be desired and I think you missed my point. I apologize if my post didn't make my point clear. I'll be sure to write at least three drafts and run my post by an editor before posting.

My point is that the church attempts to produce scholarly works that support the faith of its intellectual members. FARMS, the Dead Sea Scrolls work, and other scientific undertakings by BYU provide a channel for intellectual members to spend their energy.

Since I'm not an intellectual and apparantly can't think for myself, can I get your personal email address so that anytime I need to make a decision I can ask you personally?

BTW "I could never attend a religion that demans me to put my head in the sand" is not an ironic statement for me---I left the LDS church because I don't believe in the truthfullness of its claims.

[fusnik11]

Was it not just released that Utah does not have a high number of college graduates? It seems I read a recent newspaper article that said, despite the perception, Utahn's do not finish their education and there is a small percentage of college grads.

As far as activity rates they are a tad messed up. Going once in a quarter qualifies somebody as active. That means if you go once every four months, you are an active member of the church, not too impressive, IMO.

As far as Seattle Ute's claims, I believe him. In my mission right before I, and the new mission president arrived, the missionaries were baptizing around 15 a month, most wards had around fifteen hundred members with a weekly frequency rate of about one hundred and twenty if you were in a good ward.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by fusnik11

Was it not just released that Utah does not have a high number of college graduates? It seems I read a recent newspaper article that said, despite the perception, Utahn's do not finish their education and there is a small percentage of college grads.

Well, that's one way to read it I suppose. Depends on how you want to spin it. Here you go:

"Now Utah has slipped to 17th in the nation for bachelor's degree and 27th for advanced degrees, according to the 2005 American Community Survey, also conducted through the Census Bureau."

"And while higher education was taking a dive in Utah, the state's public education sector only slipped two spots to No. 5 for the percentage of residents who completed high school on the most recent report."

http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,645193110,00.html