I don't get "Satan."

[Indy Coug]

The value of believing in a literal Satan that lived with us in pre-mortal existence is that it implies there is opposition that is actively managed and tailored to attack our personal weaknesses. I think with that view, one might be more inclined to be wary of the adversary than they would be with some passive, "natural-man" threat.

[Archaea]

This is something about intellectuals that perplexes me. It doesn't bother me that parts of the Bible, Job, may be religious allegory for teaching purposes, but it also doesn't bother me in a literal adversary. Many intellectuals would like to suppose nothing in the universe exists excepting their intellects, and all evil is in the minds of men. They almost categorically reject the notion that evil can have a separate physical identity. That seems equally illogical, but I'm just a dumb lawyer, so what do I know.

[Brian]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

The value of believing in a literal Satan that lived with us in pre-mortal existence is that it implies there is opposition that is actively managed and tailored to attack our personal weaknesses. I think with that view, one might be more inclined to be wary of the adversary than they would be with some passive, "natural-man" threat.

I guess I don't really see a difference.
Once you "really" get to know yourself, that can be as scary as a mean guy with a goatee. Why can't the mind (whose abilities we barely use) house some personally tailored opposition that we were sent here to tackle with the aid of the atonement?
I'm not sure what I believe, I just think both ideas are possible.

Regards,
Brian

[fusnik11]

Originally Posted by Brian

I guess I don't really see a difference.
Once you "really" get to know yourself, that can be as scary as a mean guy with a goatee. Why can't the mind (whose abilities we barely use) house some personally tailored opposition that we were sent here to tackle with the aid of the atonement?
I'm not sure what I believe, I just think both ideas are possible.

Regards,


Brian

here is my struggle with satan or the idea of him....

a. i had some crazy experiences with possessions on my mission that made me realize there exists a dark, and sometimes tangible force, that is black and void of happiness....

so i do believe there exists a dark force that fights against that which is good....

b. the idea that someone would openly rebel in the presence of god with the plan, and the results, in front of you. it doesnt make sense to the rational mind.

i accept that the desires of the flesh are dark, and cause people to fight against that which is good.....

i almost have an easier time believing the following....as i do believe in the spirit world, and its existence here on this plant....

that cain, or all those who practice evil on this earth, continue practicing evil and feasting on the imperfections of people with bodies. they long to be part of the flesh, and want those in the flesh to suffer as they suffer. this they do while in the spirit world.

a stretch yes, either way i am ok with it...

[Brian]

Originally Posted by Archaea

... Many intellectuals would like to suppose nothing in the universe exists excepting their intellects, and all evil is in the minds of men. They almost categorically reject the notion that evil can have a separate physical identity. That seems equally illogical, but I'm just a dumb lawyer, so what do I know.

I don't know which it is either. However, the "real" me, the spirit/intelligence/whatever is infinite and eternal, capable, I think, of much more than we can possibly imagine.
I think the more time spent "knowing thyself" the better we know what evil is and how it affects us.
Again I don't see a difference. Why does satan have to be external? I don't see why it must be that way.

Regards,
Brian

[Indy Coug]

I don't enjoy talking about this and we have been counseled by church authorities not to discuss dark events with the adversary, but suffice to say, my dad and I have had separate experiences that leaves little doubt as to the matter of the literal/symbolic existence of the opposition.

Read accounts by Joseph Smith, Heber C. Kimball and so forth for more explicit documentation.

[Black Diamond Bay]

Originally Posted by Brian

I don't know which it is either. However, the "real" me, the spirit/intelligence/whatever is infinite and eternal, capable, I think, of much more than we can possibly imagine.
I think the more time spent "knowing thyself" the better we know what evil is and how it affects us.
Again I don't see a difference. Why does satan have to be external? I don't see why it must be that way.

To say that there is no devil, IMO is to insinuate that the evil exists within ourselves. I just don't believe that. I think I have weaknesses of the flesh that lead to all kinds of temptations, just like everyone else. However, I firmly believe that there is a devil, and he wants me to not only succumb to the weaknesses of the flesh, but to turn my back on God. To refuse the gift of the atonement, and continue down a path that will lead to distruction. I don't think that Satan always tempts us to do evil, but I do believe that he does what he can to try and keep us from getting back on track.

My theory on how he operates is that he doesn't know us like our father in heaven. He does not know our individual weaknesses. He waits for us to show them to him, and once we've fallen victim to those weaknesses, put ourselves in a position where the spirit is not with us, he lays a plot to exploit said weakness. I think we do some of the work on our own, but once he sees us inching away from where we should be, he works to keep us coming his way. Hence, none of us can afford even a moment of weakness, IMHO.

[SteelBlue]

Here's why I wonder if an external Satan is necessary. Did the Plan of Salvation require that somebody fail and fulfill the role of Satan the temptor? Had all of God's children accepted the POS, who would have served in that capacity if that capacity is a necessary one?

I think that Good and Evil have always and will always exist. Being out of the presence of God leaves us to choose for ourselves which path we will take. I'm not sure that I believe Satan is required for us to be tested. The reason I'm not sure is because by definition that means somebody (in this case Lucifer) was required to fail. That doesn't make much sense to me. I do believe that Satan exists and that he tempts us. I haven't figured out if his role was/is required in our "test".

[creekster]

I think that Good and Evil have always and will always exist. Being out of the presence of God leaves us to choose for ourselves which path we will take. I'm not sure that I believe Satan is required for us to be tested. The reason I'm not sure is because by definition that means somebody (in this case Lucifer) was required to fail. That doesn't make much sense to me. I do believe that Satan exists and that he tempts us. I haven't figured out if his role was/is required in our "test".

This raises an interesting feature of Mormon Theology; if God was once like us, then what/who was the prime mover? If evil exists within us, or apart from a conscious effort by one whose prupose is to be evil, then who created evil? Did God's creator create evil? Apparently so according to many of you. So evil is God's fault (or the fault fo the prime mover, the original God)?

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by SteelBlue

Here's why I wonder if an external Satan is necessary. Did the Plan of Salvation require that somebody fail and fulfill the role of Satan the temptor? Had all of God's children accepted the POS, who would have served in that capacity if that capacity is a necessary one?

I think that Good and Evil have always and will always exist. Being out of the presence of God leaves us to choose for ourselves which path we will take. I'm not sure that I believe Satan is required for us to be tested. The reason I'm not sure is because by definition that means somebody (in this case Lucifer) was required to fail. That doesn't make much sense to me. I do believe that Satan exists and that he tempts us. I haven't figured out if his role was/is required in our "test".

I don't pretend to know the answer, but could it perhaps be that when you have 50 Billion, 100 Billion or more spiritual offspring, it's a mathematical certainty there will be one who will rise/fall to the position that Satan holds?